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[scagga]

It's crap from the point of view of a veteran pirate? I'm not surprised.

I should qualify the statement. It's not the statement that you feel it's a waste of time that is crap. It's a statement that it's a waste of time for people that is crap. If one finds it quite enjoyable, then that is not a waste of their time.

To make a corollary -- I consider mining to be a waste of time. However I don't tell people that it's bad use of their RL time simply because I think it's boring as hell.

Does that make sense?

I think what we have here is primarily I took to disagreement with the way you put the idea forth, not the idea itself.

I must say it does come down to what people find fun.  I don't find piracy fun because I find it a poor investment of my time (i.e. reward vs  time investment).  I don't feel I'm achieving anything during the 'search time'.  Naturally, that's an opinion. Some people enjoy spending time roaming looking for viable targets.  I interpret the reward in piracy to be the end result - kills and terror.

That's just it though. For some of us, the "Hunt" is the part that's fun. The kill is easy. You go into the fight knowing you will get the kill. It's stalking your prey that is the real enjoying factor -- and this I believe is where the difference comes in.

Shooting a deer isn't fun. It's really easy to do and anyone with even the most basic firearm skill can do it. The prep work, the hunt, the stalking -- that's why Hunting is fun.

I repeat - it's an opinion.  Trade on the other hand, from my point of view, can be extremely efficient time investment - every single click is creating a measurable, predicatable positive effect on your isk if you know what you are doing, which you can then use for your nefarious designs.  Not a single unproductive minute, with a dependable reward-time investment.  I did get tired of 'patrols' that resulted in 15-20 jumps and 1 'worthless' kill, but that may have been partly a factor of my ROE.  The kill itself would net loot value that could be recouped in a fraction of the time through other means...

...but is it fun? That's the question.

Sure, it's a more efficient way to make isk, but is that why you play the game? Just to make isk?

That's what I was disagreeing with, btw, I figured it out. I was disagreeing with the idea that if you're not making isk every time you do anything you're not efficiently using your RL time.

I think that is crap, and I also think that is something that burns people out on EVE.

I'll reply in the next post.

[scagga]

Naturally, all is opinion and subjective.

I too find mining a waste of my time. Why? Not because of efficiency (though I do find it less efficient than trading), but because of the 'cap' in how well you can do, and the effort you need to go to in order to make tidy profit.  Trade can earn hundreds of millions/hour on one account, without accounting for measurable satisfaction acquired from successful application of intellect against other traders/buyers.

If one is omnicapable, I do not see why one should bother mining for an hour every day for a week when they could trade for an hour every day for a week and make much more, as the objective of both exercises is to accrue wealth.

The problem I find with PvP is that the reward at the end of the 'hunt' is pitiful, though you have mentioned that you enjoyed the process. Clearly, this depends on motivating factors.  If I cannot measure the reward I get from an ingame activity, I find it hard to justify giving up my time to do it.

The paradox would then be corporate management. I used to love running corporations (for a while) - probably the sense of power and ability to unleash creative potential, while roleplaying within the amazing culture we had created in our corporation...However, even then, I could measure reward as long term growth trends, corporate wealth increases, corporate capacity/activity increases, corporate ideology application, etc.  A clear reward.

The problem I see with pvp rewards is that they are like orgasms, intense, infrequent and short-lived.  The problem I see with pvp foreplay is that I see it as too similar to hauling - does not require thinking, just application of rules/assumptive psychology and accessing databanks of background information about your quarry.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Just a mention, you didn't address what I was getting at really.

I was getting at this:

I was disagreeing with the idea that if you're not making isk every time you do anything you're not efficiently using your RL time.

To which you answered with this:

. . .in order to make tidy profit.

Trade can earn hundreds of millions/hour. . .

. . .as the objective of both exercises is to accrue wealth. . .

The problem I find with PvP is that the reward at the end. . .

And many other similar aspects.

Which leads to this:

If I cannot measure the reward I get from an ingame activity, I find it hard to justify giving up my time to do it.

What unit of measurement does one use to measure "Entertainment"?  Edit: Specifically. Is it a waste of your RL time to watch a movie that you enjoy? You have no measurable reward from it, and the purpose of watching a movie and the purpose of playing a game are... the same.

[scagga]

Just a mention, you didn't address what I was getting at really.

I was getting at this:

I was disagreeing with the idea that if you're not making isk every time you do anything you're not efficiently using your RL time.

To which you answered with this:

. . .in order to make tidy profit.

Trade can earn hundreds of millions/hour. . .

. . .as the objective of both exercises is to accrue wealth. . .

The problem I find with PvP is that the reward at the end. . .

And many other similar aspects.

Which leads to this:

If I cannot measure the reward I get from an ingame activity, I find it hard to justify giving up my time to do it.

What unit of measurement does one use to measure "Entertainment"?  Edit: Specifically. Is it a waste of your RL time to watch a movie that you enjoy? You have no measurable reward from it, and the purpose of watching a movie and the purpose of playing a game are... the same.

Yes, it seems I didn't address your previous post properly. Accidental, I assure you.

In response to your question regarding movies - I rarely watch movies all the way through - either because the topic is uninteresting, or I have figured the movie out at the early stages and believe it will follow predictably through a cliche. I can't remember fully watching more than 3 movies in the last 6 months, and I haven't had a television in my resident household for over 6 years. Usually I watch a movie (usually select clips/skimming) to tap into certain knowledge/concepts that it explores for subsequent usage/understanding.

Games attract me if they are designed to achieve something (a score via skill), learn something (hopefully that can be applied elsewhere - economics, word games - forums are excellent for that), design something (a city, an ideology based on application), act out something (that applies something I am interested in).

[Silver Night]

It would be fair to say then that what you want out of a game is not the same as what many others want out of it?

[scagga]

It would be fair to say then that what you want out of a game is not the same as what many others want out of it?

Yes.  It would suggest that people play EvE for reasons that are not easily measurable, which would bring me to question, out of interest, what their motivations are for activities out of game. I constructed my view with a clear input vs reward model.  What other models could we use?

[Lillith Blackheart]

Instead of movies, you could easily apply listening to music, reading a book, going for a walk, etc. Use whatever is applicable for you that is something you enjoy that you have no measurable reward.

It would be fair to say then that what you want out of a game is not the same as what many others want out of it?

That's the point that I'm getting at, yar.

It's crap to say it's not good use of someone's time just because they're not making money efficiently. That is a load of hogwash. It may well be that they're not using their time well, sure, however I don't make a lot of isk in EVE. I don't make a lot of isk in EVE because the only time I care about how much isk I have is if I decide I want to buy something. Otherwise the amount of isk I have is entirely irrelevant (and oftentimes, as I don't buy much, when I do decide to buy something, I have enough isk that how much I have is still irrelevant in comparison to the cost of what I want).

In which case, my goal of a game is to enjoy myself. I obviously like to win, don't get me wrong, but this is an MMO. MMOs don't have a win condition. They are giant sandboxes. ODDLY sandboxes are my favorite type of game, as I can sit back and do whatever I feel like and still be accomplishing something in the game.

This is where it meets back to piracy. Piracy is fun. Hunting people down in a belt and blowing up their ship is a good time. There's a rush and a thrill, and the joy of tracking down the straggling, weak prey. It's a good time.

Is there measurable value? Sure.

Carebear tears.

Yes.  It would suggest that people play EvE for reasons that are not easily measurable, which would bring me to question, out of interest, what their motivations are for activities out of game. I constructed my view with a clear input vs reward model.  What other models could we use?

It's the same model, input versus reward, however the problem I see is you're stuck on the idea that both must be tangible.

[Silver Night]

Well, I think if that is the playstyle that works for him, that is perfectly valid. I would, however, be careful about making broad statements about how much other people will enjoy alternate playstyles based on what you enjoy, particularly if what you enjoy is quite manifestly not the same thing that many other people enjoy. 

[scagga]

Instead of movies, you could easily apply listening to music, reading a book, going for a walk, etc. Use whatever is applicable for you that is something you enjoy that you have no measurable reward.

Re: Your examples:

=====

Rewards:

Music: Increases capacity to do something e.g. exercise or concentrate.  This has been validated by academic literature.

Walk: Exercise, get somewhere without using fuel/money, take a break to feel refreshed afterwards.

Read a book: Knowledge (which can be used for skilled conversation, study, insured reserved understanding for future problems), otherwise won't read.

=====

Even posting on this forum - Reward: procrastination.

[Casiella]

If people didn't have fun with piracy, we wouldn't see so damn many pirates.

If more people enjoyed trading, we'd see more of them... instead, they leave the profits for those of us that do like it.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Instead of movies, you could easily apply listening to music, reading a book, going for a walk, etc. Use whatever is applicable for you that is something you enjoy that you have no measurable reward.

Re: Your examples:

=====

Rewards:

Music: Increases capacity to do something e.g. exercise or concentrate.  This has been validated by academic literature.

Walk: Exercise, get somewhere without using fuel/money, take a break to feel refreshed afterwards.

Read a book: Knowledge (which can be used for skilled conversation, study, insured reserved understanding for future problems), otherwise won't read.

=====

Even posting on this forum - Reward: procrastination.

So you are incapable of doing anything "just because it's fun"? Everything must have a tangible measurement to be valued?

[scagga]

MMOs don't have a win condition.

Indeed. This suggests that one creates their own 'win' conditions if they want to win, and therefore in order to enjoy themselves.  Some enjoy creating empires, others enjoy creating something unique in the game, enjoying resultant fame.  Some enjoy being the best at something (best killer, best producer etc).  Justifiable goals.

They are giant sandboxes. ODDLY sandboxes are my favorite type of game, as I can sit back and do whatever I feel like and still be accomplishing something in the game.

Accomplishing a kill or a bunch of kills is an accomplishment? Against what measure, I ask myself? How do I know that my accomplishment is worth accomplishing, if it is accomplished to the same level or better by so many others who may/may not be inferior?  What can I achieve that distinguishes my ability over the others?  

Carebear tears.

But killing other players for the sake of it?  Their tears, while tasty, are predictable.  The irony is that what they end up losing is time investment, but it usually takes you more time in lost income to find them and kill them than it took them to make the money to buy what they lost in the first place...parable of the broken window...

One week I went and I spent time killing mining cruisers, a destroyer and an odd hulk with a battlehauler (failed to break a tank on an AF and a transport).  I felt that was an achievement worth more than most pvp because most people don't go pirating solo in a t1 hauler.  Replicating what anyone with a headset and the ability to follow instructions can do is hardly notable in my opinion, it's towing the line at the base level.  Dominating trade is dominating trade - when you get good at it, you can become the best in the area, and no matter how long someone else spends in game, they can't beat you because you are better than them at the game, not merely logged in for longer. The domination reward is there in its purest form.

[scagga]

If people didn't have fun with piracy, we wouldn't see so damn many pirates.

If more people enjoyed trading, we'd see more of them... instead, they leave the profits for those of us that do like it.

The conversation content suggests that what people actually enjoy and the measurable value of what they are enjoying do not correlate.  Example: McDonald's success, despite what it sells.

[scagga]

So you are incapable of doing anything "just because it's fun"? Everything must have a tangible measurement to be valued?

If that is the question, then I am inclined to ask: How do you decide for yourself what is fun and what isn't fun? What motivates you?

[Lillith Blackheart]

So you are incapable of doing anything "just because it's fun"? Everything must have a tangible measurement to be valued?

If that is the question, then I am inclined to ask: How do you decide for yourself what is fun and what isn't fun? What motivates you?

Code: [Select]

fun   [fuhn]  Show IPA noun, verb,funned, fun·ning, adjective
–noun
1.
something that provides mirth or amusement: A picnic would be fun.
2.
enjoyment or playfulness: She's full of fun.
>.>

Less snide of a response: If I am enjoying myself (you know, having a good time, finding entertainment, etc.) then I am having fun. If I am not enjoying myself, then I am not having fun.

It's measured in intangibles.



To the rest of your postage careening. . .

Accomplishing a kill or a bunch of kills is an accomplishment? Against what measure, I ask myself? How do I know that my accomplishment is worth accomplishing, if it is accomplished to the same level or better by so many others who may/may not be inferior?  What can I achieve that distinguishes my ability over the others?

Carebear Tears. I have decided these are the new unit of measurement for "Fun". Whether or not you're actually killing other people in a game or not, you can hereby measure "fun" in number of Carebear Tears, or CbT. This Sansha Event as it continues on, has generated me approximately 5.9 kCbT.

Again, less snide: For what reason do you feel that you must be able to claim superiority or that others must be inferior? Can't an accomplishment just be an accomplishment without it having to be compared with others?

Why must everything be measured?

But killing other players for the sake of it?

Yes.

Their tears, while tasty, are predictable.  The irony is that what they end up losing is time investment, but it usually takes you more time in lost income to find them and kill them than it took them to make the money to buy what they lost in the first place...parable of the broken window...

Only applicable if your only measurement is income. I put forth the suggestion that such a measurement is entirely irrelevant, because what exactly is that income going to get you? What do you really get out of having billions of isk in your wallet? Bragging rights?

I have just shy of 400m isk, but I would put forth I've gotten more out of my time in EVE than most people who have billions.

Replicating what anyone with a headset and the ability to follow instructions can do is hardly notable in my opinion, it's towing the line at the base level.  Dominating trade is dominating trade - when you get good at it, you can become the best in the area, and no matter how long someone else spends in game, they can't beat you because you are better than them at the game, not merely logged in for longer.

.....

..................

............

Ok, let me just say that the inferiority/superiority statement here is palpable, and as a mention them thar "leet pvp kiddies" you would primarily be directing this to would say the same thing in reverse.

This is something that plagues me about human perspective -- the way you do things is "harder" and "better" and "greater accomplishment" than what someone else is doing, and the "you" in this is generic. The viewpoint you're giving here is not one that I haven't seen a million times before, and I'm certain you have as well.

The point here is that being very good at any task is a challenge. It's equally challenging to be a really quality PvPer that can sit in just about any ship and be successful and alternatively to dominate a trade hub or create a trade hub.

Neither is really "harder" than the other. They are simply different challenges that require different skills.

So why is your challenge greater than, say, a pirate's challenge of keeping an 80% or greater success rate?

Human perspective has an interesting thing to it, and that is that it feels it is "better" than others, so the challenges it has the skills for that it is able to excel at are "more difficult" than the challenges that it either doesn't have the skills or doesn't have the interest to excel at.

However.

It is a misguided perception.