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[Graelyn]

That's not the issue, I think most of us are super fine with an official ccp IC and OOC channel, more power to them, bring more RPers in, advertise it, etc, good luck and all that.

Us mod team people are displaying a high level of butthurt because the stated REASONS from this from the mouth of a ccp employee is that we are fail moderators and that our channel is shit and we ban people for no reason willy nilly and that we 'can't get along' with everyone. 

This is false, not getting along with a handful of consistently shitty trolls who shit up things for just about everyone else is not a failure on our part, it's a failure on the troll's part.  And the trolls bitching and whining does not make it our fault.  CCP employees saying this is happening because of our failures is the thing we are uncomfortable with.

I was going to write some stuff, but Silas has nailed it.

Falcon thought I was being 'overdramatic' for bitching him out in public over it.

I guess I've never been one to turn the other cheek to that kind of crap.


Anyhow, Summit/OOC will continue as normal.

[Alain Colcer]

I'm kinda confused.....first, when you open the default channel list on the game client, there are 2 CCP channels "content" and "live events", neither of which is used by Team illuminati. I wonder why...

Second, i understand CCP decision to remove ANY kind of misperception around who, where and when players are reached through actors......


But i'm totally baffled by the 6 pages of discussion the annoucement of CCP falcon created here on Backstage....can't we all take a wait and see approach? i'm not really happy to see a known channel turned into a graveyard because CCP actors no longer visit it.....but they are not cutting us out entirely (which has been the usual in the past).....they are just changing locations.

That's not the issue, I think most of us are super fine with an official ccp IC and OOC channel, more power to them, bring more RPers in, advertise it, etc, good luck and all that.

Us mod team people are displaying a high level of butthurt because the stated REASONS from this from the mouth of a ccp employee is that we are fail moderators and that our channel is shit and we ban people for no reason willy nilly and that we 'can't get along' with everyone. 

This is false, not getting along with a handful of consistently shitty trolls who shit up things for just about everyone else is not a failure on our part, it's a failure on the troll's part.  And the trolls bitching and whining does not make it our fault.  CCP employees saying this is happening because of our failures is the thing we are uncomfortable with.

ohhhh


well, as moderators you have first hand experiencie dealing with trolls there......don't you guys have a little pitty over team Illuminati now? i know they "might" be citing reasons that portray your role as moderators a failure.......but if i was the lion tamer and someone came up my alley to say they could do better (or they were taking over) i would just give a smile and step aside to watch the show.

Yes i know how it feels when something that you worked hard for is taken from you.......but in this case, we are in a complex situation as the game itself is CCP property, even the channels created within the game client.

[Silas Vitalia]

They aren't 'taking away' anything in an objective sense; we disagree with what we might feel is a misrepresentation of things.

The comments basically had the tone of 'we have to do this new channel stuff since you people keep failing to get along and now we have to deal with it'

It's like blaming the battered spouse for not making more of an effort to 'work it out' with the person beating on them.

No thanks, we are happy to continue to work to maintain an overall positive and 90% inclusive player channel, and I don't think any of us apologize for taking out the trash, and I do mean trash.


Anyway this is being analyzed to death here, likely Falcon was pissy and he gets snarky when called on that kind of thing no doubt, I'm also assuming he was annoyed as hell at having to deal with all of this garbage.

[Reyd Karris]

Fun fact: they were never supposed to appear in player-run channels to begin with. What you're seeing now isn't just a response to players complaining about biased moderation, it's CCP actually enforcing its own rules for live event actors properly.

The situation happening now is EXACTLY why rules like that should be enforced. The accusations of favoritism, the appearance of personal slights to the community, etc. are detrimental to live events. No matter what the intention, when the rules do start getting enforced, it leaves bad vibes. Especially when taking away something that people had enjoyed through no fault of their own.

WARNING: PERSONAL ANECDOTE FOLLOWS

Previous to the new live events, I was actually part of one-on-one RP with event actors. Should that have happened? Probably not. It was absolutely awesome, but I never expected that to happen in the first place (and knew at the time that it wasn't the best idea; which is one reason I downplayed the situations).

Was it favoritism? It could certainly look that way. I now regret the interactions because, w hen the interactions stopped, it felt like a personal attack. When the overall RP situation got pissed on by a certain novel, I completely checked out. It took a reevaluation of my goals in EVE, and the re-balance of ships, to come back (and horrible luck with weather that knocked me out of the game, freakin' floods).

Long story short, we really need to look at this objectively. Prior to this series of live events, event actors rarely (if ever) interacted in OOC or The Summit. Rules that should have been enforced are now being enforced, and going back to that situation shouldn't be that big of a problem. I don't think it's being "overdramatic" to react how people have either. That's a really unfair statement. I think that it will take time to adapt, yes, but in the end I see the change as a positive move from CCP. The reactions people are having should not be unexpected.

CCP employees saying this is happening because of our failures is the thing we are uncomfortable with.

Yes, and the wording used was not fitting with the stated goal. It really came off as an attempt to scold the moderation team in public. That, in my mind, is inappropriate.

How should it have been done? Devblog, not mentioning specific channels, and not trying to place blame. "Hey, we're going to be changing how things are done, and here's the channels we will be in."

In my opinion:

Awkward policy change is awkward, and CCP needs to put some more rules in place to keep their employees from shitting up their own good intentions.

[Silas Vitalia]

The most positive solution would have been to just make the new channels and say

"Intergalactic Summit and Out Of Character are where official dev IC interactions and OOC conversations will be happening in the future, stay tuned to these channels if you'd like to get involved in upcoming RP and Live events.  In order to reach a larger and wider eve player base audience we will unfortunately have to be winding down a lot of the smaller and more personal RP arcs that some of you have been participants in over the last few years.  While the devs take no sides in player grudges and disagreements, we owe it to all subscribers to appear not to be picking sides and will unfortunately only be appearing in character in these new channels, and will be phasing out any appearances in the player-made channels"

something to that effect

[Reyd Karris]

The most positive solution would have been to just make the new channels and say

"Intergalactic Summit and Out Of Character are where official dev IC interactions and OOC conversations will be happening in the future, stay tuned to these channels if you'd like to get involved in upcoming RP and Live events.  In order to reach a larger and wider eve player base audience we will unfortunately have to be winding down a lot of the smaller and more personal RP arcs that some of you have been participants in over the last few years.  While the devs take no sides in player grudges and disagreements, we owe it to all subscribers to appear not to be picking sides and will unfortunately only be appearing in character in these new channels, and will be phasing out any appearances in the player-made channels"

something to that effect

This would have been a wonderful way to word things. Has there been an official announcement on the EVE forums about the channels? I haven't really read through all the replies here, and don't have too much time today to browse through the EVE forums.

If not, someone might want to nudge it along.

  

[Esna Pitoojee]

The other way to think about it is that those "indiscretions" provided a concrete, valuable reward for taking a step beyond being a thoughtless lemming at the live events: i.e., you could just show up to the announced live events, shoot some CCP-provided targets, and go home. Anyone can, but there's no especially significant reward associated with doing this.

OR, you can opt to go the few extra miles: Become a planner, weave an interesting story, lead an effort instead of riding along with it. In return, you will receive varying degrees of recognition for your efforts.


Let me put it a more mechanical way: Every action in EVE exists because the game provides some kind of reward for it. Run missions, receive LP. Haul a freighterload of stuff 10 jumps, have supplies easily at hand. Seize sovereignty space, get ratting, moons, and stations (and possibly :gudfites:). Plan, coordinate, and lead large RP events... receive actor recognition.


EDIT: No, the most positive solution would have been to say "We are beginning outreach efforts to include all players in our events, and to this effect have created two new channels for means of contact: Intergalactic Summit, for 'in character' interactions, and Out Of Character for eponymous interactions with Team Illuminati. We also continue to understand and support the reality that EVE is a sandbox, and in accordance with this we will continue to support those who opt to build their own sandcastles."

[Reyd Karris]

We also continue to understand and support the reality that EVE is a sandbox, and in accordance with this we will continue to support those who opt to build their own sandcastles."

The thing is, for those sandcastles to truly stand on their own, they need to stand on their own.

Let me put it a more mechanical way: Every action in EVE exists because the game provides some kind of reward for it. Run missions, receive LP. Haul a freighterload of stuff 10 jumps, have supplies easily at hand. Seize sovereignty space, get ratting, moons, and stations (and possibly :gudfites:). Plan, coordinate, and lead large RP events... receive actor recognition.

Actor recognition should not be the primary motivator for RP or RP events, and I don't believe there should be CCP provided "awards" for such things.

RP is--and should be--it's own reward. Everything above can be acquired through RP. Getting handed a fully-fitted Tengu and hints to unraveling the Sleeper mystery by another player through sheer ballsy forum RP was the best reward I ever received, and CCP wasn't involved at all (to my knowledge).

[Silas Vitalia]

I think lots of us do lots of fun things without any dev involvement, most of our RP lives I suppose.


I think we thought things were heating up for us when we got all the IC faction actors, evemail addresses for them, etc.  These things go in cycles of 'lots of PF stuff about to happen' and 'nothing PF happening for a long time'

While the 'official' actor stuff has never been a requisite for any good RP or Event, it is undeniable that they often add an air of credibility or ability to affect things in the 'larger' PF world.  For faction 'loyalist' capsuleers this is sometimes a very big deal, as it does wonders for say, an Imperial loyalist to get props from an official representative of the Amarr Empire rather than nothing but silence for years at a time for all the 'work' they do on their behalf, etc.


IE it's sometimes a way to have things we do be written down on official stone tablets as 'things that actually happened.'

Everyone likes being a part of 'things that actually happened'

[Arista Shahni]

well, as moderators you have first hand experiencie dealing with trolls there......don't you guys have a little pitty over team Illuminati now?

As a nonmod I wouldn't.  And I got 0 headaches.

Why?

The CCP folks are paid to do it.

Even volunteer mods get their accounts comped.

OOC / Summit mods got no such perks.

As I always said, if you can no longer do something out of love, you do it out of money.  At my mother says, "Love does not pay the bills".

They got yelled out and singled out essentially by name (the mods are all listend) in a "public"ish channel beause none was ever supplied for it to be done by CCP, without a discussion before hand, without asking them for proof why they banned who for what, which is all logged.  Should have been done inprivate.  If they broke the rules, that calls for a verbal warning as per CCP regs. not a "im your friend but I have CCP ahead of my name now so I can be a dick without recourse".  Sorry for those who know them.  Ouisders viewpoint.  Show me where I'm wrong and I'll change my viewpoint on it now that I've heard more.

that's not being a professional staffer.  It's being a jerk one cab't fight against in an official position where being a jerk to "paying valuable players" aka basically the SAME TYPE WHO STARTED THIS SHITSTORM is not acceptable, especially when the "reasons" given were cause "mods were being mean and everyone whol silently atching this essentially public channel will read and believe the blue text over white" will believe.  Sorry. IDK Falcon well.  But shows a nice hypocritial example of how to act 'professionally'.  That very act is a reason to imo report a GM for tagrgeting.

EDITED

[Lasairiona]

To clarify, the image I posted was not directed at anyone in particular. I'm sorry if anyone has taken it to mean that. 

My basic thoughts are, I think this has been blown out of proportion. I'm sure CCP appreciates the efforts made by the OOC and Summit moderator teams, but in an effort to appear unbiased, they have created these channels. I think a lot of it was taken out of context. I was there from the initial announcement, but maybe I'm too optimistic and have taken things too lightly?

I can understand the effort that goes into moderating a channel with that amount of people and I have friends on the moderator team so I wouldn't say anything bad about them. I just think perhaps we're assuming too much about the issue? Who knows. Only time will tell.

[Esna Pitoojee]

2 clarifications, Lasa:

One, nobody is that upset about the new channels. Something like that has been discussed before, even, and there wasn't a dramastorm about it. It's that they are cancelling all other means of interaction that is so frustrating to us.

Two, the original announcement in OOC was fairly tame, yes. I continue to suspect it was in large part a canned speech handed to Falcon by Internal Affairs. Some comments made in the new channel later on, however, were decidedly not canned and much more concerning.

[Silas Vitalia]

To clarify, the image I posted was not directed at anyone in particular. I'm sorry if anyone has taken it to mean that. 

My basic thoughts are, I think this has been blown out of proportion. I'm sure CCP appreciates the efforts made by the OOC and Summit moderator teams, but in an effort to appear unbiased, they have created these channels. I think a lot of it was taken out of context. I was there from the initial announcement, but maybe I'm too optimistic and have taken things too lightly?

I can understand the effort that goes into moderating a channel with that amount of people and I have friends on the moderator team so I wouldn't say anything bad about them. I just think perhaps we're assuming too much about the issue? Who knows. Only time will tell.

Likely out of proportion, but things were NOT taken out of context.  People respond in different ways to being slapped.

Internet spaceship in character chatting channels is serious bidness, yall.

[Lasairiona]

2 clarifications, Lasa:

One, nobody is that upset about the new channels. Something like that has been discussed before, even, and there wasn't a dramastorm about it. It's that they are cancelling all other means of interaction that is so frustrating to us.

Two, the original announcement in OOC was fairly tame, yes. I continue to suspect it was in large part a canned speech handed to Falcon by Internal Affairs. Some comments made in the new channel later on, however, were decidedly not canned and much more concerning.

From what I recall, Graelyn came into the channel with some very sarcastic comments. Perhaps CCP Falcon did react poorly to the situation and without much tact, but there was snark on both sides.

[Arista Shahni]

prev post edited my post for typos and more on my final thoughts on the "badness"