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[Silas Vitalia]

Programming says no, sadly. I work with a lot of IT people. I actually brought it up once in a convo and they basically said 'nope.' It MIGHT be possible, but the amount of work needed to put into it, the complicated coding, the amount of servers, etc...you'd see sub rates rise higher just to support the project before ever even seeing its first live implementations.

Not one game engine sharing space, but the illusion of such.  IE you are actually loading a different engine when doing the different things, but say they share the chat and market systems.  When I dock up my ship, exit my pod, and want to enter the station and walk around, it closes the eve client and loads the in-station client.  They don't have to be the same set of software, but they need to be able to be -accessed- easily.

Just like you can have your STEAM window open, and it takes all of 20 seconds to switch games if you wanted to.

[Anslol]

Different thing with Steam. Steam is an organizing client, a launch pad to play separate games. Just a glorified filing cabinet with a forum and a store.

Doing that with Eve would be...difficult. It's basically taking 4 different types of car engines, sticking them into one car, and having a button to switch between engines. You can guess the complications that might happen.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see that happen. But they have problems just keeping the client for Eve stable and bug free after simple patches. Imagine what would happen with client wide patches with four different clients on there? They couldn't do separate patches for separate engines or games or whatever. If it's all consolidated under one thingy like that, it'd have to be updated across the board, same patch...imagine the bugs man. Starship Troopers would look like Disney World.

I know updates in Steam happen separately per game, but Steam is still a launch pad for games, not a game in it self that is also a hub for other iterations of the game.

...does that make sense? It sort of did in my mind...>_>

[Anabella Rella]

If it's true that Carbon is such a dog that it can't handle multi-avatar gameplay then Eve is pretty much at a deed end. I don't see hordes of subscribers signing up to play spreadsheets in space no matter how much ship tweaking, POS revamping and the like gets done.

I hope that the bosses at CCP will wake up and stop listening to the pitchfork wielding forum haters. The way to keep Eve relevant is to give players more options to immerse themselves in the game universe by developing engaging new content and innovative features.

[Silas Vitalia]

If it's true that Carbon is such a dog that it can't handle multi-avatar gameplay then Eve is pretty much at a deed end. I don't see hordes of subscribers signing up to play spreadsheets in space no matter how much ship tweaking, POS revamping and the like gets done.

I hope that the bosses at CCP will wake up and stop listening to the pitchfork wielding forum haters. The way to keep Eve relevant is to give players more options to immerse themselves in the game universe by developing engaging new content and innovative features.

MMO's have had third-person multi-user experiences for what, 15 years now?

Their lack of progress on this is laughable.

[Reyd Karris]

If it's true that Carbon is such a dog that it can't handle multi-avatar gameplay then Eve is pretty much at a deed end.

If that's true, then WoD is completely doomed as well. I think it's more a "we can't have more avatars without reducing the pretty images we have now, so instead of compromise the art we're compromising on gameplay". Which means avatars are pretty much a dead end not from a tech perspective, but from a "We're artists" perspective.

As for the various EVE games being separate, that goes back to the whole "FEARLESS" motto and "We're taking over the world" mentality. It's an attempt at diversification, but instead of actually diversifying and going in a new direction, they played it far too safe and kept the DUST/EVE connection, and using the IP they acquired from White Wolf for their new MMO. Could they go toe-to-toe with games like HALO, WoW, etc? Hell no. They could, however, leverage their existing IP to create a spinoff franchise.

I'll say it right here, right now, and people won't like it; WoD is doomed if it is going to be subscription based. A niche tabletop game becoming a popular subscription MMO? I don't see it happening. DUST gaining momentum after this long, with as many problems as they've had, and on a console that in two months will be "last gen"? Slim to null.

I don't blame CCP though. The only fault they have is that they really aren't agile enough a business, and don't have the manpower for their freakin' awesome ideas. The reasoning looks simple from the outside; why take such a risk with a new game, with new servers, etc. when they could potentially use the same exact server resources for two games? Number crunchers nod, penny pinchers nod, and the marketing team goes "Great!" The problem is, with limited resources (and years of development) DUST is nowhere near where it needs to be in order to be a money maker even after launch, and is about 7 years too late to really take advantage of the console it's on.

Unless CCP makes the big move to PS4 (Valkyrie, maybe?) they might as well bow out of the console business and refocus on PC. Personally, if Valkyrie doesn't launch for PS4 then they're wasting dev resources. If DUST doesn't transition over to PS4, it's as good as dead. If they switch DUST over to PC they might as well just have it as an expansion for EVE (Easy PF fix; new tech is developed to allow Capsuleers to Jump Clone into a soldier, problem solved).

Long and the short of it, CCP is on the edge of a very steep dive if they don't make harsh decisions right now. Looking at the past few years, I'm afraid the "FEARLESS" habit might be too hard to break. I don't blame people for leaving for greener pastures. I enjoy EVE (and I'd be playing right now if my apartment hadn't flooded and my computer wasn't out of commission for another week or two), but I kind of wish they'd take more long term risks without worrying about short term benefit. They're shooting themselves in the foot from a purely business perspective. "FEARLESS" doesn't mean "stupidly following bad plans and making the best out of those plans regardless of how stupid they are because we kind of screwed up and overextended".

Now, on the whole "different games, one client" issue, CCP has the server architecture that runs DUST and EVE. EVE and DUST, however, have different coding. One game uses Unreal, the other uses Carbon. Both share database and servers, as well as a chat client. They are two separate games. Now, once WoD development advances a bit, I'm sure they could transfer over the avatar tech to allow EVE avatars on PC to run just as good as DUST avatars do on PS3. Will they transfer everything on DUST over to PC, an d allow EVE players to fight alongside Dusters? Probably not, because they'd have to build everything in Carbon not just port everything over from Unreal. I'm fairly certain they can get Carbon to work on PS4, since it's PC architecture. If they want to do the full DUST to PC conversion, the PS4 would be their first target (realistically), and if they wanted to port EVE over to PS4 in some way, Valkyrie looks like a good initial testing of the waters.

So it's not just a matter of technology, but business strategy that has to be taken into account. What's the best for the company, what takes less resources, and what has the most potential to see a return on investment? Looking at the current state of DUST (without looking at the metrics), I'd say there has to be some serious questions being asked at the upper management level as to what exactly they need to do to salvage anything past next year (just speaking of DUST, not EVE).

[Lyn Farel]

WoD is not doomed at the contrary. They are developping it with Unreal, not Carbon. They chose to redo it all with Unreal.

 That's the thing that makes me say that Carbon is... put in standby, at best.

[Reyd Karris]

WoD is not doomed at the contrary. They are developping it with Unreal, not Carbon. They chose to redo it all with Unreal.

 That's the thing that makes me say that Carbon is... put in standby, at best.

Oh, awesome! I didn't know that.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Ah... so what did they develop Carbon for, again? To show off that they ca do a sota graphics engine?

Epic fail.

[Reyd Karris]

Ah... so what did they develop Carbon for, again? To show off that they ca do a sota graphics engine?

They can sort of do a state of the art graphics engine. Making it work in practical applications is the real litmus test, and so far single avatar graphics is all it seems capable of (while using a top end gaming rig, no less). The Captain's Quarters are all well and good, but honestly what's the point when CCP can do the same thing, for less resources (and looking just as good) on PS3 using Unreal (Merc Quarters)?

Again, it goes back to the whole "FEARLESS" thing. Going into a development project looking at long term application without realizing cheaper short-term solutions could have produced as good - if not better - results without wasting money. Those decisions were made years ago though, and hopefully moving forward CCP will make better decisions.

For me, I'm happy with how the game has progressed over the past couple years. The game runs good on my computer, it looks good on my computer, and ship balance seems to be coming along nicely. Everything else is absolutely secondary to having a fun core game experience. I can mine and have fun, I can blow up rats and have fun, I can PvP and have fun.

Why else would someone play the game, if not to have fun? I hope Soundwave has fun in his new job.

'Nuff said.

[Lyn Farel]

Mhh, now you all make me doubt on that Unreal thing. Maybe I got confused with Dust ?

Will have to check again where I heared that.

[Morwen Lagann]

I believe that the prototype gameplay they showed off at Fanfest was done in Unreal, though it might've been Unity.

I *think* Carbon can display more than one avatar at a time (as Stitcher is oh-so-fond of pointing out, opening a full-body preview of someone while you're in your CQ counts, as might standing in front of the mirror) but the real question is can it do so without toasting video cards, being laggy, etc.

[Anabella Rella]

I think Reyd hit it on the head when he called CCP out on the whole "fearless" thing. I see part of that manifested in "not invented here" syndrome. At that time the company was riding high; they'd bought White Wolf for WoD, they were working on the long-promised Walking In Stations and they'd expanded their offices to 3 continents. They were seriously believing their own hype. As is the case most of the time when this attitude sets in they got arrogant. CCP decided they could develop their own graphics engine that would be superior to what was already out there to be licensed. If some tech they needed wasn't developed in house, it was crap. (To be fair they did an amazingly good job with Trinity so, this belief wasn't totally delusional) Hilmar pretty much admitted this during a mea culpa keynote presentation during the Fanfest following the Incarna protests.

My issue is that they've now swung the pendulum too far in the other direction. They're ignoring the fact that playing things too safe can be just as dangerous as hubris.

[Lyn Farel]

Developping a new engine costs millions. Tbh considering that they sure seemed to make some debts by doing so (I seem to recall something like 10M debt evoked once), they still made it, meaning they had the funds, and failed. To me, it's surprising and does not speak very well of the programmers that were in charge, or either their lack of recruitment of qualified engineers for that. I don't know what was the cause...

[Anslol]

Managers and Supervisors who did not understand that what they were asking for was a lot more than they anticipated. Happened to me as a researcher. Super would request x, y, and z with 10 hours assigned to it, when task x ALONE would take 25 hours, and putting it together to work with y and z would be even more time and resources that were not available and would not be requisitioned.

Just higher ups pushing for shit they know nothing about.

[Reyd Karris]

Developping a new engine costs millions.

You know, I've seen something intriguing and consistent with game companies when they go looking for cash to help develop a game. They present a LOT of pretty pictures, maybe a video to demonstrate what the game could be. Courting money from those who know nothing about game development, polish and shine is everything.

Now, DUST and Incarna both had those awesome pictures, those nice developer videos, etc. WoD has those awesome demos of clothing and water flowing down walls. Are those destined for the game, or are they focused on getting money to develop the engine? Is it both?

I'm cynical though. I've seen quite a few games use the tactic of developing nice pictures but not having the manpower or resources to fully realize their dream. Also, human nature being what it is, I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a push to get more income than to truly develop the game engine properly.