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News:

That Gallente Federation loyalist and [EL-G] CEO Seriphyn Inhonores is originally from Caldari Prime?

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Author Topic: Capsuleer Tropes: Things that you love, things that you don't  (Read 12879 times)

Seriphyn

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Almost forgot, personal pet peeve of mine : people that use "I can't believe that you made me agree with X", where X is an usual mortal enemy, to point out how demented a point might be to make both people agree. It's so trite...

Posting to quote this.
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Vikarion

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Above all else though, yes Veik is probably in some respects a villain or antagonist, but she's not going to surrender the initiative in her "Ebil plans" just to make it easy on the good guys.

Looks like a hero to me.
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Gesakaarin

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Looks like a hero to me.

I would say like everything to me, it's always a matter perspective.

Which, probably brings me to another pet peeve of mine relevant to this topic. Which is the constant need it seems at times for some characters and players to seek to imply some sense of arbitrary moral absolutism. That there exists, "Bad guys" and that there are, "Good guys". What will always make the Amarr and Caldari so interesting to me is that while they are societies that are both capable of performing acts that I as a player might find to a degree abhorrent, there is always that fact that since it's unrealistic a human being will see themselves as, "Evil", the fun comes in trying to understand how people in the State or Empire justify or rationalize what I the player might disagree with. Exploring a different set of morals, ethics, beliefs and cultural norms brings a lot of depth and complexity for me.

I've always felt both Fed and Minmatar RP a bit stale for me, because there's a lot more of that moral absolutism in those factions coming from some their participants. That they're the good guys fighting the good fight for Freedom and Democracy, so everyone must be the moustache twirling bad guys who are against Freedom and Democracy because they are evil. When things like the fact the Federation might suffer from, as a President Eisenhower forewarned, of the dangers to democracy in having a powerful military-industrial complex due to a century of conflict with the Caldari State; or the negative aspects of having strong tribal/ethnic identity potentially causing internecine strife in the Republic which has been apparent from the Balkans, to Afghanistan, and in Africa, they seem to be vehemently denied both IC and OOC from characters and players even though they have a strong basis in both the PF and in reality.

I think a willingness to accept the negative aspects of ones own faction is a good thing, in seeking to find and understand them, and in dealing with them as a character and as a player is a good thing to me. In this I think is what the real strengths to factions like the State and Empire, or the outlaw factions are: you have to deal with negative aspects quickly and learn how you can rationalize/justify those negative aspects. It also prevents the pains of wanting to complain in public when it's pointed just how abstract ideals don't often synchronize with practical realities in the fiction of Eve.
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Elmund Egivand

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This is specifially why Arista does not shit talk on forums or elsewhere.  As a capuleer (and I as a nervous person IRL) will not back it up with lazors, so Ari is guilt as a mild RP toon.  So i relfect that in RP.

And this is thus my other beef: RPers who would chest-beat but not back-up his words by force, wits or will (or combination thereof).
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Pieter Tuulinen

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I've never understood why the Minnies and the Feds even see themselves as the good guys. Sure the Matari had the whole slavery thing to overcome but if you think what they're doing now is good then you probably cheered for Ahab the whole way through Moby Dick.

As for the Gallenteans they probably have the closest claim to the position of good guy except that no other faction has so little reason to do the evil that they do. Economically self-sufficient. Highest standard of living. Highest level of personal freedoms. How do they react? Secret State Police abducting and murdering their own citizens. A huge number of traitors in the military and a history of responding to dissent with overwhelming force when it isn't voiced by ethnic Gallente.
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Etienne Saissore

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I've never understood why the Minnies and the Feds even see themselves as the good guys.
Sorry to interrupt but it is not true that all the Fed players see their faction as the "good guys", whatever that means. Many interesting stories do arise from the grey shades but because this kind of RP does not really thrive in an environment where the only mode of interaction is multicultural public speaking, not everyone gets exposed to the whole variety and it's easy to get a wrong idea of what is the big picture. Some players of opposing factions also seem to be propagating the "good guys" stereotype for metagaming purposes, which is not helpful at all.

Of course, most of the characters of all factions probably do think they're doing the right thing, unless they have a vested interest in keeping their position, but how else could it be?

The reasons why some players actually might see Feds as the "good guys" could be related to the close similarity between the declaration of human rights, the ideals of the constitution, etc and their real life equivalents, but it's not like there aren't any cynical interpretations.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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You're right. I shouldn't have suggested that all minnie and feddy players are monolithic entities.

Please consider my statement to read 'all minnie and feddy players who DO consider their factions to be the good guys...'
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Lyn Farel

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It becomes even more disturbing when I see some Caldari or Amarr fanboys starting to think that their faction is somehow a good model of society and ideals, to the point of denying every shade of grey and resorting to the same propaganda people usually use ICly.

Yeah, fortunately, a lot less of those, but I have seen some. It's disturbing.
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Seriphyn

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I'm the type that does enjoy portraying the downsides of the Fed in particular because it gives meaning to playing a "good guy". Admittedly, it's a bit difficult to do that at this current point in time when my RP is currently focused on an ISK-soaked Dubai project. It's even harder that these guys are meticulous about being moral and upstanding. I may explore in the future individuals who joined the project who are motivated by self interest. Even the white knight charity organizations irl that appear flawless will have these.

As for the Federation's general flaws, I think they're intended to be a little less obvious or outward than the other factions. Economic neoliberalism, negligence via buckpassing, pushing of absolutism in a relativistic society...it's just that this is a bit difficult to portray to the lowest common denominator. The common "secret police in a democracy" is much more simpler to consume,  even if it isn't logical.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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None of the main factions are good. All have their flaws and all have their own reasons for overlooking them. Sometimes playing a character who denies these flaws can be interesting. I prefer someone who knows they are there but works with the polity they are part of to make the best of it's potential.

I believe some of the minority groups (EoM, Sansha, Blood Raiders) are a lot more bad than good (even if you can get nice Blooder grandmothers). But these groups tend to show themselves as the worst aspects of the groups that they split off from.
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Kind Regards,
Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Desiderya

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For humans being atrociously good at adaption I think any of New Eden's models are realistic and would work. After all we're collectively in for a dystopic future, unless we can overcome fickle things like free will and egoism. (Hello Sansha). To play devil's advocate, Lyn, I think that all the (empire, for the sake of simplicity) systems in New Eden are good models of society, because none of them are highly dysfunctional or objectively evil to their own subjects, nor to humankind in its entirety. Today's advanced societies enjoy their warring as much as them, as the exploitations of weaker nations. We're not just very good at adaption, we're also pretty good at self-defeception, after all. ;)
But for the sake of this discussion I think I know what you mean, and I would tend to agree. People who do  not see both sides of the(ir) factions OOCly are very tedious to deal with.
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Etienne Saissore

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Please consider my statement to read 'all minnie and feddy players who DO consider their factions to be the good guys...'
Thanks for the clarification. At some point, the Caldari were seen as the "good guys" - patriotic, frugal, loyal and honourable, having suffered a lot, protecting their way of life, and the Feds were seen as corrupted, arrogant, double-speaking oppressors, to put it nicely.

I feel that a Federation loyalist who plays the core might need to make somewhat finer divisions between the views of the player and the character, than say, an avid supporter of monopolies or slavery, and this could in principle lead to an abundance of characters whose IC views would be acceptable for the majority in the today's society. I'm not sure if this is the case, and not trying to imply there's something wrong with it.

Could be that it's not even possible to play the dark side of the Federation without having some ideas on the shortcomings of democracy, market economy, politics and other things which have close parallels in real life.
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Lyn Farel

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I'll speak mostly from my experience here, on what I have had the occasion to witness for the 4 factions over the years.

- The Amarr have always suffered from the villain trope, thanks mostly to the slavery aspect, which literally detonates when coupled with religion. I am not sure they have been ever once portrayed as the good guys in the minds of players. Even maybe in some chronicles where they were truly compared in a good light with the Federation (like in 2 Deaths). Not to help them further, they have often looked like utter fools on the intergalactic scene, but they are far from being alone in that. But incidentally enough the Amarr had enough of charisma to still appeal to strong core groups of RPers, that eventually vanished the last years. It was a slow and painful decline.

- The Caldari, when I started and up until Heth, have always seemed obviously good and the favorite of many people, including maybe CCP, to my eyes. It was not a hazard that 40% of players were Caldari, even with the Achura and their insane attribute distribution. They sure were portrayed their flaws, but eventually they suffered from the same syndrome than the Minmatar, which is the victim syndrome where for the reason evoked by Etienne, they were often considered not as perfectly good guys, but an ideal worthy of respect and adoration for most. They always looked strong, meritocratic, militarist, and well, everything that made all of us geeks wet inside. Then TEA happened, harming the faction in a bad way, and meritocracy was the only thing that players were able to clench onto by default because everything else was collapsing around them. And eventually the recent events were they were kicked in Luminaire, which is one of the first time I witness a major defeat in Caldari history tbh. In any case, they sure have suffered from the wrong reasons, and have lost a lot of their immaculate status.

- The Minmatar have always been the favored race to be considered the good guys in my experience, until recently. The madmax/rebel look, freedom loving dudes flying in rusty ships with style, fighting against oppressors and tyranny, had a lot of success in all those years for RPers. But the few past years, they have lost a lot of their appeal to RPers it seems. Not sure why, until Colelie, which was a major blow.

- The Gallente have always suffered of a mixed portrayal. The fact that they have never really witnessed a strong core group of loyalists (the curse of federal diversity) put aside, they have always represented 2 antagonist things closely related to our modern world : the western ideals, naturally held by most of us players as our christian/western legacy, like liberty, democracy, etc, which could have probably have been even stronger than the minmatar appeal to a lot of players initially, but also all the flaws of our current society, and especially now with the economic crisis, were we are confronted to corruption, and all the cons we tend to despise IRL, now. And the latter easily get projected on the Gallente Federation (with good reasons), but eventually become personal pets peeve for a lot of players that for the same reason than the Amarr on who players can unleash their hatred of religion/slavery, they can be spitted on for the things we hate IRL, were they suddenly become twisted corrupted bloated entities. Also, the Gallente have also suffered from an interest part of the PF, where they up until the battle of CP, were literally apathetic vegetables, suffering and taking hits and never doing anything against that. That, alone, I think hurt the faction a lot more than the rest since its very loyalists started to get "meh" about the loss of charisma projected by their faction over the years (like for the Amarr).



For humans being atrociously good at adaption I think any of New Eden's models are realistic and would work. After all we're collectively in for a dystopic future, unless we can overcome fickle things like free will and egoism. (Hello Sansha). To play devil's advocate, Lyn, I think that all the (empire, for the sake of simplicity) systems in New Eden are good models of society, because none of them are highly dysfunctional or objectively evil to their own subjects, nor to humankind in its entirety. Today's advanced societies enjoy their warring as much as them, as the exploitations of weaker nations. We're not just very good at adaption, we're also pretty good at self-defeception, after all. ;)
But for the sake of this discussion I think I know what you mean, and I would tend to agree. People who do  not see both sides of the(ir) factions OOCly are very tedious to deal with.

Of course they can be good/valid models of society.
« Last Edit: 15 Sep 2013, 07:58 by Lyn Farel »
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Desiderya

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CCP bias! Ask a Caldari and they're favoring Feds, ask a fed and they're favoring the Caldari...
This is absolutely /yawn and I should suggest some tinfoil. Every faction has their players that amp up the good aspects to 11 and brush everything bad under the rug. I mean, I've wondered myself how the sentence "Corporate Dictatorship" would coincide with "liberalism" that some have brought up in discussion - but I think this is hardly the fault of CCP and more a very liberal interpretation based on the user's side?
"My side has to be good."
"My side has to be flawless."
"My side has to win."

I mean, just look at some character concepts out there and you might find these very tendencies repeated on a personal level.
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Gesakaarin

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Well the Caldari State has always had deep and apparent flaws to me, but for those that have never wanted to engage with, or recognize those flaws then I would say CCP was kind enough to provide Ishukone as a sort of release valve for players and characters to use who did not want to be a part of those flaws.
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