Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Pieter Tuulinen]

People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well, that's my burden, I guess.

I have an ability or a sickness. I am able to be selectively compassionate - I have the full suite of emotional reactions but if being compassionate puts me or mine in danger then I have the ability to step over someone's bleeding body rather than get involved.

It's not fear that paralyses me from doing what I want - help a hurting human being. It's a conscious triage decision. Sometimes I hate that I do it, but it never changes my reaction.

[Vikarion]

Actually Vik, I don't think you lack empathy at all. You might not have it developed to the same extent as people who make use of it in a professional setting but based on some of the answers/scenarios you described I think it's there.

What you seem to lack is sympathy, which is not necessarily a dysfunctional thing.

It is theorized that there are two kinds of empathy, cognitive and affective. Cognitive empathy is the ability to recognize emotions in others. Affective empathy is the emotional response to them. I have some of the former, probably none of the latter. I can recognize that you are sad, for example, but if I have an emotional response, it will probably be annoyance or irritation. Usually I simply want to fix whatever the problem is and move on. Sometimes I can, more often my friends and family get annoyed with me when I can't demonstrate any long term or deep connection.

If you have been sad, then you know what it is like to feel sad.  Therefore, your ecognize ssandess in others.  That's empathy.

Sympathy is 'doing something abut it'.

See what I said above. Moreover, I can't entirely relate to other's emotions. I have tried to examine my emotions and reactions more closely over the past few years, having escaped some rather unpleasant circumstances and now having the breathing room to do so. Some things I do not appear to experience.

For example, I don't appear to feel guilt. I can regret doing an action because it has bad consequences for me, or I can fear getting caught, but I have no intrinsic bad feeling for certain actions. I have to use the word "bad feeling", because that's what it has been described to me as. This doesn't mean that I run out and start murdering people - there are many good reasons not to kill people aside from anticipated bad feelings. But I certainly don't feel bad about wanting some people to die, or for taking actions which were "mean" but also legal. This is but one example - for example, I don't ever recall feeling grief. Can I feel angry that someone was taken away from me? Yes, for a few minutes. Can I miss seeing them now and then, because I found them interesting? Yes, absolutely. Do I feel the "deep, enduring sense of loss" that others speak of and demonstrate? No. Never. Not once.

And I sometimes feel emotions with no reason, or, perhaps, odd emotions. Fortunately, I don't think that I experience very strong emotions most (if not all) of the time.

I can't help but pity you then. That actually sounds like it really, really sucks.

Seriously, working in a soup kitchen does nothing for your emotional well-being? What about volunteering some of your spaceship time in exchange for the Big Brother program, where you can give a troubled or hapless kid an afternoon of enjoyment and discussion that he might not otherwise get? What about simply holding a door open for an elderly woman as she smiles and thanks you?

Wouldn't these things make you feel good? Even just a bit?

If not, are you a zombie or just totally depressed?

Of course it does nothing for me. I really don't understand why it would do something for me. There is nothing about feeding soup to bums that would appeal to me. As for the Big Brother program, while I might enjoy discussing things with an intelligent kid, I don't find most kids to be such, and I certainly have more entertaining things to do with my time.

I actually have tried doing things like this, now and then, just because of how others talk about them. The only thing I feel is disappointment, or, if I gave up something I wanted, loss. When I was a teen, as a Christian, I used to do 5-day clubs (like Vacation Bible School) for kids. Honestly, I found it a chore. I've tried visiting nursing homes, giving to the homeless, and many other things. In general, I find it either unpleasant or incredibly boring. In fact, until I understood that others can actually feel a connection with someone else's happiness, I couldn't understand any reason for these actions aside from religious or social duty (you know, the "give to the poor or you'll burn in hell" sort of thing, common at my former church).

And no, I'm not unhappy. Actually, I feel relatively happy and unstressed most of the time. Physically, my work can be stressful, but I don't lose sleep over just about anything, work-related or not.

And I do have my own means of being nice. I really enjoy Kiva loans, for example. I don't care about the people I loan to, I just enjoy the feeling of success and, well, pride I get when a loan is paid back and I can lend again. Sure, it's not all that amazing, but it feels like I made a wise investment decision, and that's very satisfying. So, people in poverty get a leg up, and I get to feel good. Everyone wins. And that, too, makes me feel good, because it means that I found a way to get selfish pleasure out of of a charitable activity. I'm fucking awesome, thank you. 

I also just like doing occasional random benevolent things simply because I enjoy manipulating people. I especially enjoy manipulating people in constructive ways. In my opinion, any idiot can tear things down, but only a smart or cunning person can build them up. Right now I have a little scheme going with an older, shy Japanese woman who lives a few doors down from me. I think she is lonely, but I can't be sure, because, you know, no empathy. Anyway, after being introduced to her by a third person who hoped I could fix her printer (I couldn't), I decided to start bring her a little something every week. Usually it's something like a small pie, a loaf of zucchini bread, cookies, or whatnot.

I don't really care for her one way or another (actually, sometimes I have to try not to feel a little contempt, an emotion that I find too common in my make-up), and I certainly don't have any designs on her (she's older, as I said), but I find her increasing delighted bewilderment to be tremendously entertaining as she continually tries to assure me that I don't have to bring her stuff while also very much enjoying it and telling me that she likes the presents as well.

I get to feel mischievous, manipulative, and a bit like a tiny benevolent god, and she gets to feel that someone is showing her a little care (even if it's an illusion), and, also, pie.

Is this wrong? Is this right? Honestly, I don't really care. I enjoy it, so I do it, and it hurts no one, so I'm not going to get in trouble.

People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well, that's my burden, I guess.

I have an ability or a sickness. I am able to be selectively compassionate - I have the full suite of emotional reactions but if being compassionate puts me or mine in danger then I have the ability to step over someone's bleeding body rather than get involved.

It's not fear that paralyses me from doing what I want - help a hurting human being. It's a conscious triage decision. Sometimes I hate that I do it, but it never changes my reaction.

I mostly don't like Dexter. Just because I can't connect with others emotionally does not mean that I have some great desire to run around killing people. I also do like Dexter, a little bit, because it is sometimes an interesting show. Yet, just because many reactions are faked, doesn't mean that I'm a homicidal maniac. Seriously.

As to the rest of your post, I think that that is a skill, and a useful one to have. If you have the full suite of emotions, but can set them aside when necessary, then you have the best of both worlds, don't you? Do you work in a trauma or emergency-related occupation, by any chance?

[Ollie]

It is theorized that there are two kinds of empathy, cognitive and affective. Cognitive empathy is the ability to recognize emotions in others. Affective empathy is the emotional response to them. I have some of the former, probably none of the latter. I can recognize that you are sad, for example, but if I have an emotional response, it will probably be annoyance or irritation. Usually I simply want to fix whatever the problem is and move on. Sometimes I can, more often my friends and family get annoyed with me when I can't demonstrate any long term, deep connection.

While theoretically that's quite correct and fairly well recognised, practically speaking it doesn't really mean too much in this specific context. As I said - and I acknowledge that I'm basing all this on extremely limited data - there's nothing in what describe about yourself that strikes me as too dysfunctional. Your emotional response to the problems of others is annoyance/irritation? That's a normal variation on human interaction. The fact you recognise they're emotional is the empathic part of you - the fact you don't give a shit is your individual nature.

You sound like a practical person who just wants to deal with things they can sort out and move on or away from things they either know they can't fix or things that would require more effort than they're worth to sort out.

Anyway, enough with the pop psych BS let's talk about all the other various types of BS out there

[Vikarion]

You sound like a practical person who just wants to deal with things they can sort out and move on or away from things they either know they can't fix or things that would require more effort than they're worth to sort out.

I'm not trying to sound special or badass or something. I'm not, and I despise it when people try. But it's difficult for me to agree with you when so much of what people mean goes over my head. As in, tonight, one friend of mine was torn up about how her kid had gotten into some scissors (they're moving, thus stuff is out and around), and chopped up their (the kid's) hair.

Now, I can say that she is upset. I could hardly not know; she said she was. I don't know why she is upset. I don't know what that sort of upset is like. I don't know what to do about it. I spent basically twenty minutes flailing around trying to figure out how to respond, and finally settled on getting her mind off of it by distracting her. Fortunately, that worked.

I can tell when someone is grieving. Probably. Tell me that someone died, that they loved them, and put a sad expression on their face, and I can say "ok, they are grieving". But I don't know what it's like to grieve. I never have. I can say that I was a little sad as a kid when pets died, because then we no longer had them, but by sad, I mean for ten minutes. So, I can tell you when someone is "grieving", but I don't actually know what that is, aside from a theoretical construct as a sort of long-term sadness. I can experience anger, generally in a sudden, sharp flash, but I've become very good at controlling that, a fact that I am proud of. 

This is how I construct most emotional theories for myself. "Loneliness" is sort of like the boredom I feel when there is no one to talk to...but I've never been truly lonely - that is, really longing for company, though I like company. Sadness is difficult. People seem to have a sadness spectrum, I have only one or two variations (mostly when I don't get what I want), which is possibly why I am so rarely sad. I don't know if I love or not - if I do, it's remarkably mercurial. I prefer to base my valuation of people on other qualities about them, like how interesting and smart they are. I can experience lust, I suppose, but it's a distracted, easily ignored sort of thing. I have a general sense of well-being and happiness most of the time, yet many people seem to lack this.

To me, most other people seem to be over-dosing on some sort of hysteria drug. I often have trouble with non-detective/war fiction, because people seem so frustratingly irrational and incompetent. These days, I mostly read non-fiction. Maybe these are just the signs of being exceptionally practical. If so, I like it, and I often wish others were also more "practical".

As for the pop psych, eh, the author of the thread essentially said he got what he wanted, so I assume we can wander where we will.

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

I can actually see a lot of myself in there, Vikarion - a more extreme version, but recognisable.  I'm good (or used to be, I've cut back) at listening to other peoples' problems, but that's basically because I'm a nosy bastard.  I try to be a nice person in general, but only to the point where it begins to impinge on my happiness - at which point I have to start weighing things up.  I'm a firm believer in the principle of enlightened self-interest as a way of setting goals and tasks.  If I were to win the lottery tomorrow, I'd probably throw most of it to charity - but only after I'd worked out what I needed, and just because I don't approve of sitting on useless resources rather than from any particular need to benefit others.  I'm also very familiar with the satisfaction from successfully manipulating people.

I do also sometimes have to do reality checks on my emotions.  It's a joke between my fiance and me that she goes up to 11, and I go up to 7.5 on the emotion scale.  I can hit depression pretty hard at times (usually when stressed), and my temper is a rare but scary thing, but apart from that, it's generally fairly low key.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Someone said that sociopathy is actually far more common than is widely assumed - because in order to all 'serial killer' you need a further problem that makes you want to kill people.

Sociopathy doesn't do that. Most Sociopaths are high-functioning - that is, they understand that fitting in with society and contributing actually services their goals FAR more than being a murderous asshat.

[Vikarion]

Someone said that sociopathy is actually far more common than is widely assumed - because in order to all 'serial killer' you need a further problem that makes you want to kill people.

Sociopathy doesn't do that. Most Sociopaths are high-functioning - that is, they understand that fitting in with society and contributing actually services their goals FAR more than being a murderous asshat.

Sociopathy isn't a real medical diagnosis anymore, not since the latest DSMs, at any rate. Now there is a different label: Antisocial Personality Disorder. Well, whatever. Psychological conditions do not seem to be set in concrete, and I don't tend to consider myself mentally disordered or ill. Indeed, using as an objective metric as I can (comparing my predictions about future events and probabilities to the predictions of others) I seem to have a reasonably good grasp of what is going on.

I've taken the PCL-R, and I score high enough on it (28-32, depending on how you want to evaluate certain aspects of my personality) to be considered a sociopath. I don't know if I like the label, and it may not apply, as I tend to be averse to activities I feel to be overly risky. If that's a trait of a "high functioning sociopath", then maybe I am one, and maybe Repentance is too. I can be impulsive and irresponsible, but I've learned to work around that or control myself - for example, I fund my retirement by an automatic withdrawal that it would take too much effort to stop. I tend to be oddly exempt from irresponsibility and impulsive behavior at my job, probably because I enjoy it and really don't want to fuck it up. On the other hand, I forgot about how bald my tires were until one of them popped on me just the other day. It wasn't that I didn't have the money, I just didn't care.

I just tend to be a bit...leery of the label because it implies that I want to ruin lives or kill people. In general, I just want to enjoy myself. Sure, I want to ruin some people's lives, but you might want to ruin them too, if you knew the people I did. Then again, maybe not. And I don't, because society is better for me if everyone doesn't go around trying to get even for every little slight even if I really, really want to sometimes.

 

I can actually see a lot of myself in there, Vikarion - a more extreme version, but recognisable.  I'm good (or used to be, I've cut back) at listening to other peoples' problems, but that's basically because I'm a nosy bastard.  I try to be a nice person in general, but only to the point where it begins to impinge on my happiness - at which point I have to start weighing things up.  I'm a firm believer in the principle of enlightened self-interest as a way of setting goals and tasks.  If I were to win the lottery tomorrow, I'd probably throw most of it to charity - but only after I'd worked out what I needed, and just because I don't approve of sitting on useless resources rather than from any particular need to benefit others.  I'm also very familiar with the satisfaction from successfully manipulating people.

I do also sometimes have to do reality checks on my emotions.  It's a joke between my fiance and me that she goes up to 11, and I go up to 7.5 on the emotion scale.  I can hit depression pretty hard at times (usually when stressed), and my temper is a rare but scary thing, but apart from that, it's generally fairly low key.

This is a rarity for me - for someone else to say that they see their own self in me. It's a little flattering, in a way.

I am a good listener. I've even become good at pretending to relate, a process which I manage by coming up with situations similar to those described by whoever I am listening to. I actually don't mind that - it's trying to connect with those close to me that is trouble, that is difficult. People farther away, well, you can manage them. It is those closer who I have trouble with, those who want me to be something I don't know how to be. I know something is missing, but I don't know what. Do you find this to be true for you?

I don't know that, if I won the lottery, that I'd give most of the money to charity. I'd probably keep most of it, and live off the interest, willing the principle to space exploration companies after my death. I really like space exploration, and I want humans to get off this planet, if for no other reason than that I think our species should survive. After all, it is my species.

If I were to rate my emotions, I would put myself at a 0, or a 1, out of ten, for most of them, save for anger. Anger is my principle emotion, by which I mean that it is the only emotion I experience in any great or memorable quantity. I think I have come to the point of controlling it well. The only exception I've found to this is the feeling of absolute joy and transcendence I get when creating something or watching spacecraft lift off. That emotion, that feeling of...uplifting and triumph...is the most amazing thing I can feel. If that is how people feel when they love someone else - and I theorize that it is, sorta, then I can understand why they do such stupid things in pursuit of it.

But, Repentance, I am curious. If you are like me, how do you get depressed? What is that like, and why do you feel that way? If you feel low key, is your depression a nagging side effect, or a major emotion?

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

This is a rarity for me - for someone else to say that they see their own self in me. It's a little flattering, in a way.

You're welcome? 

I am a good listener. I've even become good at pretending to relate, a process which I manage by coming up with situations similar to those described by whoever I am listening to. I actually don't mind that - it's trying to connect with those close to me that is trouble, that is difficult. People farther away, well, you can manage them. It is those closer who I have trouble with, those who want me to be something I don't know how to be. I know something is missing, but I don't know what. Do you find this to be true for you?

Not really.  I was an only child and home-educated until 14, with relatively little real contact with people (and almost none of my own age) until about 12.  At that point, I just kind of met the world on my own terms.  At school I got a reputation for being weird which I thrived upon and was content to live with (or reinforce for my own amusement).  I remember being told, when I was a moderator on a forum a few years back, that my robot-like ability to look at a problem coolly and objectively made me the best member of the team.  I got cast in the title role of a production of Jack the Ripper at university, and the joke that everyone made was that it was type-casting.  I've never had issues with people wanting something more from me than I can offer, because I either don't care, or I know them well enough to be up front about who and what I am, and that's always been enough.

I don't know that, if I won the lottery, that I'd give most of the money to charity. I'd probably keep most of it, and live off the interest, willing the principle to space exploration companies after my death. I really like space exploration, and I want humans to get off this planet, if for no other reason than that I think our species should survive. After all, it is my species.

I can think of worse things to do.  And I'd be damned picky about what cause I was supporting.  I'm a cynical git about a lot of stuff.

But, Repentance, I am curious. If you are like me, how do you get depressed? What is that like, and why do you feel that way? If you feel low key, is your depression a nagging side effect, or a major emotion?

Depression takes the form of total apathy for me.  I wouldn't describe it as an emotion so much as a mental block, that often triggers off something minor (as I said, it almost always happens when I'm stressed for some reason, even if the source of the stress is not said trigger).  Suddenly I'll feel unmotivated, question the validity of anything I might want to do, and experience a total shutdown of any willingness to do anything.  After a time, I'll rise out of the depths and enter a mellow state where I'll basically do nothing of my own accord, but will usually accept suggestions and instructions without question.  Eventually, usually after a few hours, I'll find enough willpower to break the block and return to normal, but it's not fun.

Actually, when I say 'willpower', to an extent I mean 'annoyance'.  The thought process effectively amounts to 'I've got better things to do with my life than sit and mope, enough of this shit already'.  Certain activities (including cooking, oddly enough) can help accelerate this, and occasionally I'll enter a state that can be best described as manic, presumably from energy overflow.  You can tell when this happens because I start speaking in a mock Herr Doktor accent and zipping around the kitchen at speed.

[Gesakaarin]

This is an interesting discussion.

I worked for a few years at a Forensic Hospital (A polite term I suppose for a facility where those patients are treated for mental illness after having committed a serious indictable offense and sentenced by the State) and I only got the job there after having to complete over a week of psychological/psychometric testing and then a further month of probationary evaluation with the clinical staff prior to being granted full clearance. Taken at face value, some of those tests would have flagged me as exhibiting traits of sociopathy according to the DSM and I was told this. I was still hired because one of the traits I was also believed to possess during my assessments was the emotional control necessary to deal with patients who to varying degrees might be said to possess the qualities of being intelligent and extremely manipulative.

I don't think of things like the DSM as some kind of verdict or judgement upon a person, and I don't think the people who write it think so either. It's a diagnostic tool, but at the end of the day people aren't a maths or physics problem, or that you can just go, this is crazy and this is normal. To do so speaks of great ignorance to me, and a lack of understanding in others. I think I've just come to accept that we're all different, and unless someone presents a clear harm to themselves or others due to their mental state then I do not think it's anyone place to pass judgement upon them or go whip out the pop psychology. Even worse, stigmatize them for it.

If someone feels fine just the way they are, and who they are then that's fine by me. If someone feels unhappy or dissatisfied because they don't think they're, "normal" then I guess the only advice I can offer is that I think we're probably all a little bit fucked up in our own ways whether we like to admit that or not.

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

I think I've just come to accept that we're all different, and unless someone presents a clear harm to themselves or others due to their mental state then I do not think it's anyone place to pass judgement upon them or go whip out the pop psychology.

Being crazy is only a problem when it makes you dysfunctional.  That's my take on such questions.

And +1 to 'we're all a little fucked up in our own ways'.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Even if we don't start out life with a 'condition' that makes us a little fucked up, life usually conspires to put a crack in us before we're fully adults.

[Vikarion]

I don't think of things like the DSM as some kind of verdict or judgement upon a person, and I don't think the people who write it think so either. It's a diagnostic tool, but at the end of the day people aren't a maths or physics problem, or that you can just go, this is crazy and this is normal. To do so speaks of great ignorance to me, and a lack of understanding in others. I think I've just come to accept that we're all different, and unless someone presents a clear harm to themselves or others due to their mental state then I do not think it's anyone place to pass judgement upon them or go whip out the pop psychology. Even worse, stigmatize them for it.

Eventually, we'll be able to classify via neuroscience what types of brain structure tend to produce the best results for individuals and societies. This may be a long time in coming, and I don't mind that. I did try going to a psychologist once, mostly out of curiosity. No, scratch that, entirely out of curiosity. She almost immediately referred me to a forensic psychologist, at which point I decided satiating my curiosity was not as important as all that.   I have a friend who believes I should go to one, too, but I tend to think otherwise.

Generally, I'm happy with myself. I want to correct some of the impulsive behavior I have, but I'm not dysfunctional, at least, not any more. Rarely, I do wish that I could really connect to someone, but I sometimes wish I could see ultraviolet light, too. And I'd probably just get bored of them anyway.

Repentance, thanks for your explanations. I do find myself interested in people, for a time. I have to admit that I thought I was going through a depressed stage like that, once, but it turned out that it was just me going to bed at three in the morning every night. Sorry I can't relate. But the manic part seems fun. Do you think you have a mild form of bipolar?

I was "educated" at home as well, at least until I was eighteen. Similarly, I also had a reputation as "weird" for a few years, since I had almost no contact outside of my family until fifteen. Fortunately, I'm a good actor, so it only took me about three or four years to shake that off. Generally, in person I am great at first impressions. I've never been open about my internal reactions to my friends or family. I can fake it well, but sometimes the mask slips, so to speak, and yeah, a robot/borg response goes out. Then I have to go be extra nice.

Something I've learned, incidentally, is that if you want to maintain relationships, you need to be seen as giving back. I can't always manage to convey this emotionally, so I tend to rely on gifts, cookies, or other similar small things. It's work, but I've seen others manage to alienate themselves from those who cared for them (and helped alienate more than a couple of them myself), so it strikes me that maintaining a support structure is a good idea.

What I'm curious about it how you manage to maintain connections if you tell people how you tend to feel. If I were to - hypothetically - tell those close to me that I generally feel nothing for them, then I suspect I would have drastically fewer people close to me. How do those close to you handle it?

EDIT: It strikes me, now, that the answer to the above might be that they genuinely are willing to embrace a non-transaction-al relationship. I have a hell of a lot of trouble even admitting this could exist.

[Vikarion]

Even if we don't start out life with a 'condition' that makes us a little fucked up, life usually conspires to put a crack in us before we're fully adults.

I'm fairly sure that I was this way well before I was an adult. At the very least, I portrayed many of the objective symptoms as a child, even a young child.

One thing that I should add, to the person who spoke of making others happy, and me being miserable, is this: I'm not miserable. I have never been miserable for any length of time. Even when I was getting hit as a child, part of me was defiantly joyful at the fact that I had the power to provoke others.

But I do wish I could feel happy in other's happiness. Why not? It would be a great additional source of happiness. Sure, I feel generally happy, but I would love to be absolutely blissful, and I could manage it, too. Most people are so easy to manipulate into feeling good that I could spend my days riding a wave of other-induced bliss, if I could only fucking feel it! But it's not there, and the most I can do is try to take joy in the feeling of having the power to make others happy (or miserable). Fortunately, that's a pretty good rush right there.

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

Repentance, thanks for your explanations. I do find myself interested in people, for a time. I have to admit that I thought I was going through a depressed stage like that, once, but it turned out that it was just me going to bed at three in the morning every night. Sorry I can't relate. But the manic part seems fun. Do you think you have a mild form of bipolar?

Possible, I suppose.  Never thought of it like that.

I was "educated" at home as well, at least until I was eighteen. Similarly, I also had a reputation as "weird" for a few years, since I had almost no contact outside of my family until fifteen. Fortunately, I'm a good actor, so it only took me about three or four years to shake that off. Generally, in person I am great at first impressions.

Ditto.  As a rule, I'm an antisocial bastard, but I make an effort to be polite, reasonable and able to hold a conversation - though I'll try and find reasons to move on if said conversation doesn't interest me.

Something I've learned, incidentally, is that if you want to maintain relationships, you need to be seen as giving back. I can't always manage to convey this emotionally, so I tend to rely on gifts, cookies, or other similar small things. It's work, but I've seen others manage to alienate themselves from those who cared for them (and helped alienate more than a couple of them myself), so it strikes me that maintaining a support structure is a good idea.

I think this is the main point of difference between us - generally, I can manage an emotional exchange.  Occasionally it'll fluctuate, and I'm extremely selective about who I let close enough to start building that up, but it's the rule rather than the exception beyond that point.

Conversely, anyone not within that circle gets my polite, friendly mask.  That includes most of my friends.  It's not deceptive or anything, I simply have no real emotions invested there.  The relationship is entirely based upon common points of interest, and if those vanish, we'll probably lose contact.  It's happened many a time.

[Arista Shahni]

Your DSM diagnosis is less important overall than your GAF, imo.