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[Graelyn]

Mother
Fuckin
Airwolf.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable [...] low/null mission runners

Alas I will be ignored I think

I think that'd transcend "workable" and straight into "frustratingly immune", especially for missions although also for complexes. Aside from the hull itself, what can you probe in missions sites - drones, and wrecks (I think). Both have considerably smaller signatures than the ship, giving the pilot plenty of time to run away to the safety of a cloak/safespot/POS.

Now, a scan probe reduction in effectiveness - carefully balanced to give some benefit but not effective immunity - would be better.

[Morwen Lagann]

Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable [...] low/null mission runners

Alas I will be ignored I think

I think that'd transcend "workable" and straight into "frustratingly immune", especially for missions although also for complexes. Aside from the hull itself, what can you probe in missions sites - drones, and wrecks (I think). Both have considerably smaller signatures than the ship, giving the pilot plenty of time to run away to the safety of a cloak/safespot/POS.

Now, a scan probe reduction in effectiveness - carefully balanced to give some benefit but not effective immunity - would be better.

Emphasised spot needs correction.

Being unscannable in a complex does not make you immune to attack, and didn't back in the day of actually unscannable ships - it only worked for missions. You'd end up locating the complex beacon, and you could warp to that. (You'd end up warping to that ANYWAY because :accelerationgates:, but that's another story.) Also, you can probe down drones but not wrecks.

Basically you'd get a ship that was 'immune' while inside a mission pocket. I can think of worse things, since there's only so many out-of-systems missions you can decline before your standings are in serious trouble.

Sigradius reduction would be nice, but tbh given what the Bastion module does... um. No. Doesn't make a lick of sense. (Not to mention, MJDs give you a 150% sigrad bloom while they're active.)

[Ghost Hunter]

Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable [...] low/null mission runners

Alas I will be ignored I think

I think that'd transcend "workable" and straight into "frustratingly immune", especially for missions although also for complexes. Aside from the hull itself, what can you probe in missions sites - drones, and wrecks (I think). Both have considerably smaller signatures than the ship, giving the pilot plenty of time to run away to the safety of a cloak/safespot/POS.

Now, a scan probe reduction in effectiveness - carefully balanced to give some benefit but not effective immunity - would be better.

Missions can only be probed through a ship or drone; wrecks are not scannable. Complex sites (unless escalations) can be scanned down through the site itself.

I generally don't envision Bastion mode being used for sniping (150km+) as long as on-grid probing is a thing that exists. You will be scanned down and warped to immediately, while stuck in a fixed position ... You might as well set yourself for close to mid range and fuck all notion of long range fire support. This hurts the Golem in particular the most, as it could easily do 200km~ sniping with Cruise missiles. On the flip side, it beast modes with 50-70km Torpedoes and an absurd tank.

:V

Being immune to probing for this in missions helps to stop the disadvantage Low/Null mission runners have to contend with in their territory. You have two means of protecting your mission: leave it entirely and wait, or "Get more bros and out number them/their hotdrop/their batphone/etc". If you are not in a station system you must bounce constantly, sit in a pos, carry a cloak, etc, while you wait for the hunter to leave.

Someone cruising through looking for pickings can easily interrupt your work and you must disproportionately respond. Tech 3 Cruisers and their probe immunity gave an option in this regard, but one that is even what I think is too powerful. A Marauder doesn't have a CovOps cloak or gang links, and they're much easier to catch on gates than a T3 is. At least in this respect, your option is now "Well I'm in the last room with Bastion mode, I can finish the mission and then run/hide/log off".

[Caellach Marellus]

So it's just dawned on me.

Serpentis Blockade is going to go from being  to 

[Karmilla Strife]

lolsansha TD spam won't cut your paladin's tachyon range to 500m anymore either.

[Morwen Lagann]

So it's just dawned on me.

Serpentis Blockade is going to go from being  to 

lolsansha TD spam won't cut your paladin's tachyon range to 500m anymore either.

I think you're both forgetting something more important:

Every. Gurista. Mission. Ever.

[kalaratiri]

Numbers 

Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.

Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P


KRONOMNOMNOS:

High:
4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II
1x Salvager II
2x Small Tractor Beams II
1x Bastion transformerthingie™ Module

Med:
1x Large Micro Jump Drive
1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800)
1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)

Low:
1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
1x Tracking Enhancer II

Rigs:
1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I

Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter.


With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null  Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything.

I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea.


How to wreck things in missions?

Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.

If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.

Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.


Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.


Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff


Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.


So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.

As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post).


Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)

How the hell is he getting those numbers with cruises? Even with faction BCUs I can't hit those same numbers on a Golem. Is he running implants or what?

Also, can anyone help me make a Golem fit that will work well and -not- be a flying loot pinata for tornado gangs in highsec?

[kalaratiri]

Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)

How the hell is he getting those numbers with cruises? Even with faction BCUs I can't hit those same numbers on a Golem. Is he running implants or what?

Also, can anyone help me make a Golem fit that will work well and -not- be a flying loot pinata for tornado gangs in highsec?

I would imagine he may be using an all lvl5 character, or implants. Although, it's actually quite possible to get that high using rigs. Higher, even.

This would be a Golem fit that's moderately bling, but not enough to make it really worth ganking for loot. Apply hardeners as needed. Obviously current stats. 966dps without drones.

http://i.imgur.com/1gSWdVp.jpg

[Caellach Marellus]

His numbers for the Kronos seem pretty solid. Personally I went without the MJD and ran the numbers on a 4 magstab/2 TC setup, but I might have to play with this one a bit.

I'll be blunt, the way blasters work, Bastion mode is a clear buff to the Kronos above all other ships. Not that they don't gain from this, but nowhere near as effectively.

[Anabella Rella]

From everything I've read so far it seems that the Kronos will be the clear-cut king of Marauders. So much for balance. 

I guess I'd better add Gallente BS V to my training plan.

[kalaratiri]

Don't be so quick to judge.

Holyshit Vargur tank. Like, dual xlasbs with blue pill will probably give you around 10-15k dps tank. The full crystals, links etc, may be able to get you as high as 20k.

[Lyn Farel]

That, Kala, though, is not normal.

[Victoria Stecker]

Don't be so quick to judge.

Holyshit Vargur tank. Like, dual xlasbs with blue pill will probably give you around 10-15k dps tank. The full crystals, links etc, may be able to get you as high as 20k.

Will it actually be able to use all that tank, or at that point are you boosting more than you actually have in HP? I remember seeing someone EFT up a tengu that could tank almost 10k, but only if you overlook that the booster gave you 2-3 times your max shield hp every cycle.

Either way, these things will be godly in PVE, but I don't think they'll be used much in pvp, not a lot of buffer to go around.