Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ghost Hunter]

This topic is for the discussion on the roleplayer OOC/IC Divide, its relationship with Corporate Security and the Spy Metagame.

Please be mindful of your position taking on this subject, as it is volatile.

To serve as a discussion starter : define the OOC/IC border as you understand it, and then consider why someone who spies may be one IC, or why they might be OOC instead.

[Makkal]

I'd like to repost from the deleted thread as I believe it works for this one:

My character is loyal, moral, and dependable. I'm capricious.

My character views stealing from her corp as actual theft. She sees her corp as serving a vital function in the area. I can't see stealing a Vindicator as equivalent to stealing person's car in real life, let alone a top-of-the-line military ship. I understand my corp is a group of people who want to have some fun playing a game - they are not actually supporting a company that employs billions or protecting the good people of Syndicate from pirates.

Wouldn't the emphasis on OOC/OOG elements be more harmful than helpful?

[Esna Pitoojee]

So. Imagine a situation with the following qualifiers:
- Esna has an IC enemy. IC, Esna wants to demolish them any way he can.
- A suitable candidate to be the spy can be found via IC means, either sponsorship through the capsuleer school, some debt owed to Esna's House, or plain old bribery with staggering volumes of ISK to a young pilot.
- The spy is inserted into a target corp and, after some time, is ordered by Esna to burn himself and extract a target of signifiant RP or raw ISK value.
- After this, the spy toon either goes on to function as some other purpose - RP alt, ISK-making alt, sold on the Character Bazaar, or simply allowed to lapse. The last may be problematic, as it may violate CCP's rules regarding disposable alts and "grief tactics".

From a purely IC perspective, this is a cut-and-dry situation: Esna has recruited an agent, sent him in, and achieved his goal without using metagamed aid.


Arguement against, #1:
- This represents a breach of the OOC etiquette of the community, as while we love making nasty face and being rude to each other IC, we ultimately play the game to be fun for ourselves and for our others. Actions such as this erode the foundations of an OOC-friendly community by breaching the assumed OOC trust one creates upon bringing someone into a corp.

Counterargument #1:
- IC confrontation between truly hostile, vicious enemies will naturally include some elements which the 'loosing player' feels were not fair, and they may become upset about OOC. Be they certain 'unbeatable' fittings or fleet setups, neutral scouts, blobbing, or other tactics, there will always be someone feeling that an attacker is out to destroy not just their IC operations, but their OOC fun. We do not generally exclude people from the community for any of the above. Should spycraft be regarded any differently?


Argument against, #2:
- Spycraft claims to be purely IC, but often includes several elements of OOC-leaked-IC metagame that cannot be avoided. For instance, the background checks performed on a new recruit - which in a real universe, might bring up something - will not bring up anything unless the applicant (the spy) says something. At the same time, because of this exact fact, no sane spy player will ever deliberately hand off information that could blow their op. Therefore, there is OOC leakage and the victims do not have a fair chance; see argument #1

Counterarguement #2:
- While the above is entirely true, it is also pervasive in hostile RP. Hostile organizations are not, for instance, in the habit of giving OOC hints as to where, when, and with what composition they are going to strike next. This might be revealed with in-universe means, but because the OOC nature of the game leaks through there is no chance for this to happen. Again, should spycraft be treated any differently?


Discuss.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

All good points, Esna.

It's probably pretty obvious from my responses in the old thread that I make a big distinction between IC and OOC actions in this game, especially where alts are concerned. While I have alts, for instance, I take pains to make sure that they're not operating simply as alts for the benefit of Shin: Dakki is CEO of the corporation that manages Shin's money, which results in a steady flow of isk to Dakki - he's got the skill for it, so it provides a good passive income for him while also performing a service for Shin. Anu, my newest alt, has basically no interaction with Shin.

Spy alts are probably the area where the IC/OOC divide stands the starkest. Fully on the OOC side would be the true disposable spy alt: You create an alt specifically to infiltrate some organization. Once their job is done, you're done with the alt. If there's a corp theft involved, the spy alt typically gives all the loot back to your main (or some other character).

The fully IC equivalent of that would be a situation where the spy is played by someone else. You've taken pains to find another player and recruit them to operate as a spy. They do so because they're getting some advantage out of it, some payoff. If there's a corp theft involved, they keep some or all of the loot.

Your example sits somewhere in the middle, Esna. The spy is an alt, but you're trying to make sure that the spy has an IC reason to do what they're doing. I'd argue that you'd have to behave very carefully in order to avoid it turning into a pure OOC "spy alt" situation. For example, while it's certainly feasible that they're doing this service for Esna because of a debt owed, it's too easy to simply say "they're doing this service for Esna because of a debt owed - there! Justified! Now, onward, loyal spy alt!". There's less of a problem with situations like "Esna is paying the spy alt a metric shit-ton of isk to do this", so long as Esna is actually paying said isk to the alt.

The tricky bit is that the spy alt, ICly, is taking on a significant lifetime risk. People ICly hate spies, and corp thieves. If you want the spy alt to perpetrate a corp theft, it's going to become pretty obvious to the people in the corp that the perpetrator is the spy alt. This is something that ICly would follow that person around and limit the things that they can do in the future. They're a capsuleer. They have the potential to live a long time and become very powerful. They would need a powerful reason why they would risk some of that.

I'm not saying it's imposible to do a spy alt without metagaming, just that it's difficult. If you want to run spy alts without appearing to metagame, the onus would be entirely on you to make sure there's not a hint of anything that someone could point to.

Which, ultimately, is why Shin has relied on actual IC recruiting of actual other players to do the couple of cases of spying she's needed done.

Besides, it's a hell of a lot of fun to do that!

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Makkal:

The emphasis on OOC/OOG isn't one that aims at security in regards of spying/corp theft etc., rather it is aiming at shaping the game environment. I'd understand it as getting together with people who're OOG deciding to play the game together and hammer out their niche in the sandbox that EVE is supposed to be.

That is an OOG decision, imho, and it usually includes that if one enters that contract, that one doesn't turn on it and does corp thievery.

[Steffanie Saissore]

I've been reading the thread while trying to figure out where my feelings fall on the matter.

From a purely OOC point-of-view: EVE, and and other mmos, all seem to have a blurry area between IC/OOC boundaries and for some people (and I include myself in this) trust can be a hard thing to separate. The collaborative style of storytelling that happens (at least what I have been involved with and have seen) requires players trusting players and sometimes that trust extends into the character; so when player A's character stabs player B's character in the back (strictly in game), player B may still feel betrayed OOC.  There have been suggestions on how to work around that...the two players sitting down strictly OOC and discussing a story arc or even just a scene that might be neat.  Unfortunately, with something that's supposed to be 'sneaky' like corp theft it becomes more difficult. Not impossible, but tricky to workout, mostly because a corp theft is not just stabbing player B in the back, but players C-Z as well.

From an IC point-of-view: Steff is naive and unless shown otherwise, tends to hope for the best when dealing with other characters (even if I the player have a 'this can't be good' feel about the situation, Steff wouldn't necessarily have the same reaction, unless she'd been exposed to it before). This has gotten her into a couple of bad situations already and taken advantage of once. IC, she will have nothing to do with those characters again unless it was at some formal gathering and then she would tolerate their presence. I, the player, have gotten upset with only myself for falling down those holes and have no real hard feelings towards the players of those characters. Heck, I would likely interact with those characters with another character that isn't Steff; but I cannot deny the fact that I am going to be more cautious due to the whole 'once-bite-twice-shy'.

In trying to setup a mainly RP-corp, I have been thinking about these things and how I would handle a situation if there was a corp heist. IC, I'd have nothing to do with the thief and might even go for retribution. OOC...I'm not sure. I would like to think that I could keep it separate, but due to my own personality, I would feel at the very least slightly betrayed and it might take some time before I could shrug it off, but I'm also one not to hold grudges for very long. I'd be mostly pissed at myself and then trying to figure out how to compensate corp members for any of their losses.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

The problem with Corp Thievery is that it isn't a solely IC event - simply because Corpmates also have an OOC relationship. Most Corps conduct OOC interviews before letting a new member in. Pretty much ALL PvP corps conduct lots of business on their Teamspeak server in order to run Ops and so forth.

If Corp thefts were REALLY solely IC then those characters planning to do them should be able to mention that during the OOC portion of their interview, right? No. Thought not.

If the thing you're planning to do is something you wouldn't mention to other characters, then it's IC. If the thing you're planning to do has to be kept secret from other players? It's OOC.

[Shiori]

If the thing you're planning to do is something you wouldn't mention to other characters, then it's IC. If the thing you're planning to do has to be kept secret from other players? It's OOC.

Not telling a player something none of their characters could know isn't "OOC." I'd go so far as to call it good mental hygiene. In fact, if you care a great deal about a strict IC/OOC divide, it's the almost guaranteed denial, kick, or restriction of roles if the player tells you that's a breach of it - altered behaviour as a result of information you don't have IC access to.

Please don't use "OOC" as a synonym for "bad."

[Gottii]

I think ya'll are looking for a bit too much out of the IC/OOC divide.  RP in EVE isnt (or at least, shouldnt) be divorced from the rest of the game.  Corp theft is not only an everyday part of the game, part of the PF (from TBL), its literally an advertised feature of the game, complete with its own trailer.  Its part of what EVE is.

Wanting OOC heads up for doing things...well...why?  Corp theft is PVP, just like everything else.  I certainly dont tell say the Amarrian bloc when and where we plan on taking a fleet into the FW warzone to blow up their pixels, why would I do such a thing if Im playing a thief or spy?

As for characters never being IC, Ive actually seen plenty of incidents where this isnt the case.  When I was in EM, I can think of one example where we used a spy in an enemy alliance during a long running war (like 7 months or so), and that spy actually reported back IC, which was really freaking cool, tbh. 

If there are hurt feelings involved, thats understandable.  But there are hurt feelings in anything PVP related.  In short, I want to RP in a brutal, competitive, ruthless universe where youre constantly on guard and only the strong survive.  Its what EVE and the PF around it have always been about.  I dont hold it against players who play corp thieves or spies, though I certainly wouldnt trust them with a director role either.

[Esna Pitoojee]

If the thing you're planning to do is something you wouldn't mention to other characters, then it's IC. If the thing you're planning to do has to be kept secret from other players? It's OOC.

This kind of brings up something I discussed in my first post.

If I am planning to invade some RPer's territory, or gank their next supply convoy - is that something I'd mention OOC to them? "Hey FYI guys, just gonna have fun shooting you up in a couple minutes, even though you didn't know!" No, it really isn't. Are my actions now "OOC"? Even if performing those same actions makes absolute perfect sense in character?

[Some very good points.]

Ooooh. Okay, good points there, Shin. The depth to which an RP alt is fleshed out - both during and after the theft - would be something that could be considered very critical. I agree with you, the temptation to say "Oh, I'm paying him oodles of money, of course!" (and then of course give the character nothing in practice) is quite real. I admit that after thinking it over, I cannot say that I would know what to do with a character after a corp theft was done - I frankly don't have the time to operate an entire second "full-time" character - the temptation would be, short of dropping the character, to just stick him in training for a dreadnought or something 10 months down the line and otherwise not do anything...


I'd appreciate some others' thoughts on this: Would it change your opinion if the "spy/thief" was developed out into a full-scale, separate character after the theft or spying was done? What if you were the victim in the exchange? Would you ever be able to view the character as something else than "X's spy alt"?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

If the thing you're planning to do is something you wouldn't mention to other characters, then it's IC. If the thing you're planning to do has to be kept secret from other players? It's OOC.

I find out and know a whole pile of stuff that
Not telling a player something none of their characters could know isn't "OOC." I'd go so far as to call it good mental hygiene. In fact, if you care a great deal about a strict IC/OOC divide, it's the almost guaranteed denial, kick, or restriction of roles if the player tells you that's a breach of it - altered behaviour as a result of information you don't have IC access to.

Please don't use "OOC" as a synonym for "bad."

And the rest of the point? About the balance of IC/OOC relationships in most corporations - even RP ones? I'm not talking about not revealing IC information that doesn't concern someones character to them, I'm talking about taking IC actions that affect someone elses character without clearing it with them. Essentially it's Godmodding.

Unless, of course, it's just part of the game, in which case it's OOC and you're doing it to the player NOT their character.

[hellgremlin]

*tries not to salivate*

[Makkal]

I'm not talking about not revealing IC information that doesn't concern someones character to them, I'm talking about taking IC actions that affect someone elses character without clearing it with them. Essentially it's Godmodding.

I'm going to disagree. Keeping information from a player is not god-modding.

Say I go to have dinner with someone at their estate and they decide they're going to put the grounds on lock-down and have the guards attack me. They don't need to tell me beforehand that's what they plan to do.

Oh, it's nice, but it's not necessary.

[Shiori]

And the rest of the point? About the balance of IC/OOC relationships in most corporations - even RP ones? I'm not talking about not revealing IC information that doesn't concern someones character to them, I'm talking about taking IC actions that affect someone elses character without clearing it with them. Essentially it's Godmodding.

Unless, of course, it's just part of the game, in which case it's OOC and you're doing it to the player NOT their character.

That's a bit of a false dichotomy; there are IC actions that aren't consensual, or always pleasing OOCly to the people involved. What makes them not entirely OOC or god-moding bullshit is that they're adjudicated by a mechanic of some sort that has IC repercussions. Ship combat comes to mind. The crappy hangar access system is less sophisticated, admittedly, but it's still hard to deny that characters have access to certain things, and might actually abscond with them.

Just because something makes you feel horribly betrayed OOC does not somehow automatically invalidate the action as not-RP.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

There's a difference between hiding information and hiding actions - but I'm really not tied up in it being 'god modding'.

I still maintain that an action taken against the members of your own Corp is taken as much OOC as IC. But then I also see PvP as being essentially OOC too.