Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Seriphyn]

What about African Americans? They're again portrayed as gangbanging vermin. Additionally, I'm not sure of any Hollywood crime films that have female protagonists who swear and murder like the men do. I say the hell with Carolyn Petite, as well as everyone who went for personal over critical attacks.

the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds

What is it about that phrasing that seems a little off to me?

It's to illustrate that these aren't "niche" girls playing video games, but the types who are going to be the alphas in secondary school. This statement is horribly counter-progressive in adhering to the cruel teen hierarchy, but certainly I did not see the "cool' girls in my high school be avid gamers. Once that happens, or rather in the process of that coming about, we'll see changes in game storytelling, particularly if these children decide to go into development.

What do people want anyway? For the government to regulate the creative process? For a feminist gaming council to be established to pick out games in some constitutional court? This has to be a bottom up thing, which will come in time as illustrated.

What happened to stuff that actually consciously demeaned, discriminated, and denigrated women anyway? This is all thought police territory. I draw three characters and none of them are female and then I'm sexist.

[Shiori]

What do people want anyway? For the government to regulate the creative process? For a feminist gaming council to be established to pick out games in some constitutional court? [..] This is all thought police territory.

Mostly, they want their concerns to be heard. Preferably without getting death threats in return. That's it.

Nobody's contesting Rockstar's freedom to make any damned game they want. It's just that they don't like it, for a few specific reasons, and they're stating them. Maybe so people will pick up on the idea that there's a growing demand for games suitable to their tastes. You know, a bottom-up sort of thing.

Think about it. Why, when criticising games, is "the combat is clunky" or "the graphics look like they're PS2 era" or "the plot was an incoherent mess" fair criticism, but "the cast was the usual testosterone fantasy sausage fest" suddenly "thought police territory?"

[Aelisha Montenagre]

What do people want anyway? For the government to regulate the creative process? For a feminist gaming council to be established to pick out games in some constitutional court? [..] This is all thought police territory.

Mostly, they want their concerns to be heard. Preferably without getting death threats in return. That's it.

Nobody's contesting Rockstar's freedom to make any damned game they want. It's just that they don't like it, for a few specific reasons, and they're stating them. Maybe so people will pick up on the idea that there's a growing demand for games suitable to their tastes. You know, a bottom-up sort of thing.

Think about it. Why, when criticising games, is "the combat is clunky" or "the graphics look like they're PS2 era" or "the plot was an incoherent mess" fair criticism, but "the cast was the usual testosterone fantasy sausage fest" suddenly "thought police territory?"

This, pretty much. 

We're in an age where equality and respect are talked about but oh so rarely put into action, and when they are put into action, there is usually an exclusion.  It is only through grass roots critique and drum-banging that these issues will continue to be heard.

Is it an awkward, inconvenient truth?  Yes.  Are you bad for enjoying a game that some may slate as misogynistic machismo?  If you're not treating it as a life lesson - then no.  But people, especially fringe and minority groups, can finally express themselves - no matter how awkwardly, stridently or loudly.  This is a start and a very good thing for the health of our collective social conscience.  If not for these voices, what would drive change? 

Annoying, uncomfortable and as incorrect as these opinions may sometimes seem, or even be, they are exactly that - opinions.  Each of us should be exposed to as many as possible in our lives, and given the chance to pick, choose and construct our understanding of our own social conscience.  Anything less is a slight not only against minority groups, but against your potential as a reasonable, considerate individual.

[Seriphyn]

I can go with the desire to have the concerns heard, which is fair enough. There's a lot of male developers though, and they genuinely may not want to write female protagonists on the fear that they'd get it wrong, rather than 'I hate women'. It's the statement that Katrina quoted though.

You can’t be a woman. I could be lazy and say this is because women do not commit crimes or swear and nor should they want to, but instead I’m going to come right out and say it’s misogynistic. What, you want to leave me death threats? Go for it! Games are about feeling powerful, and about you getting your way!

The inability to play female characters is considered by Leigh Alexander to be 'misogynistic', which is disingenuous and outright nonsensical. It's thought police territory because it strays into the area of political overcorrectness, as we've witnessed with ethnicity. It forces people to abide by some doctrine in the same light as with racial sensitivity; "Careful how you portray this black person! We might offend them!" etc. In fact, Leigh Alexander's review really comes across as blatantly disingenuous and arrogant.

People like Leigh Alexander come across as unreasonable, which causes the other side to be unreasonable as well. Mind, it's been so long into the debate that it's hard to tell who was unreasonable first EDIT: Who am I kidding, I think we know whose side it was. But by this point, it's exhausting. I know I don't want to side with the "anti-"feminist crowd because of all the misogyny and immaturity, but at the same time, Leigh Alexander does not portray a side I want to sympathize with.

[Shiori]

In fact, Leigh Alexander's review really comes across as blatantly disingenuous and arrogant.

Mh'yes, it might've seemed a little disingenuous. That's because it's satire.

EDIT: ALSO it is quite catchy set to music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ21Lsw5WE

[Lyn Farel]

What about African Americans? They're again portrayed as gangbanging vermin. Additionally, I'm not sure of any Hollywood crime films that have female protagonists who swear and murder like the men do. I say the hell with Carolyn Petite, as well as everyone who went for personal over critical attacks.

the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds

What is it about that phrasing that seems a little off to me?

It's to illustrate that these aren't "niche" girls playing video games, but the types who are going to be the alphas in secondary school. This statement is horribly counter-progressive in adhering to the cruel teen hierarchy, but certainly I did not see the "cool' girls in my high school be avid gamers. Once that happens, or rather in the process of that coming about, we'll see changes in game storytelling, particularly if these children decide to go into development.

These girls still play to the games suffering from the issues at hand. They will not learn from it, so your optimism is not totally shared. I think it will evolve eventually, but only as a whole if the global problems about sexism are solved, from important stuff like sexual abuse to little things like video games and cinema.

Add to that that the fact that these media are so pervasive in our lives that they act as learning and identifying material for our children as well.

I can go with the desire to have the concerns heard, which is fair enough. There's a lot of male developers though, and they genuinely may not want to write female protagonists on the fear that they'd get it wrong, rather than 'I hate women'. It's the statement that Katrina quoted though.

You can still hire female writers at times. They exist.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

1. Writers have FUCK ALL to do with anything. By the time a writer wanders anywhere near the creative process pretty much 95% of the game mechanics have been designed and, in most games, the story is pretty much a nicely dressed up mechanic itself - for deciding what assets get revealed when.

2. If the game is a male power fantasy, why is it surprising that most of the cast is male? In point of fact just about EVERY character in a GTA game is a horrifically negative stereotype. I agree female characters  in a GTA game tend to be more obviously and explicitly vulnerable and exploited, but male stereotypes are usually equally powerless - trapped in the drug business, no education, poverty etc.

3. Someone made a point that niche and outlier demographics are the ones making their voices heard. As a Developer I only ever chased niceh and outlier demographics when I couldn't appeal to the mainstream. The mainstream is where the money is. That's not to say that you can't make money from properly targetting a niche demographic - it's just that games like GTA can't afford to. Sorry - this one goes out to the Douchebros.

4. The Bechel test. Hollywood can't pass it 90% of the time - and they ONLY have to deliver characterisation and story. Games see those two as secondary concerns at best.

[Makkal]

In fact, Leigh Alexander's review really comes across as blatantly disingenuous and arrogant.

Mh'yes, it might've seemed a little disingenuous. That's because it's satire.

EDIT: ALSO it is quite catchy set to music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ21Lsw5WE

You'd think the point where explicitly says that she hasn't played the game might clue people in. Or the part where she calls it a 'cultural revolution' and gives it a 9.7 out of 10.

[Seriphyn]

Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.

Dropping Leigh Alexander then, GTAV seems like a non-issue in the greater argument, for reasons brought up. The third character you play is so grotesque and psychopathic, that criticizing the game for misogyny of all things is a bit of a misappropriation of priorities. Seriously, the character of Trevor is flatout insane (and well-written for that reason).

[Kala]

"If the game is a male power fantasy, why is it surprising that most of the cast is male? In point of fact just about EVERY character in a GTA game is a horrifically negative stereotype."

Not trying to suggest the game was lacking in stereotypes or anything (I think it's deliberately interacting with a lot of stereotypes) but nonetheless, I found Niko Bellic a compelling and sympathetic character; despite the violent thuggery.

(the scene where he's trying to get Roman to shut up as everything he says is more likely to get him shot, which he duly does, was comedy worthy of The Sopranos, in my opinion - the relationship between those two characters was absolute gold) 

[Morwen Lagann]

Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.

If it were subtle, most people in America wouldn't get it. Gotta cater to the lowest common denominator of your intended audience.

[Victoria Stecker]

Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.

If it were subtle, most people in America wouldn't get it. Gotta cater to the lowest common denominator of your intended audience.

The frequency with which articles from The Onion are taken seriously is embarassing.

[Gottii]

Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.

Missing the subtle satire and then saying you missed the satire because its not subtle enough lacks logic.

[Kala]

In my last job, I saw 5-11 year olds on their smartphones playing Minecraft. Both genders, even the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds, and no one batted an eyelid. In 10-15 years, these kids will be adults and will be the ones to shape the market. Hell, credit to CoD: Ghosts from the most testosterone- and 'murica-fueled franchise on the planet in reflecting the recent US military decision by including female soldiers in the line-up, something Battlefield and ARMA are behind on. I want to be able to enjoy my games in peace without some Internet armchair activists politicizing my purchase for YouTube channel hits. I grew up with video games being a boy's club, and a bottomfeeder boy's club at that. When I see cute little girls playing video games, something so farfetched in light of my upbringing, I know everything will work itself out over time. I do not think the Internet armchair activists are exposed to this, which is fair enough because their day job is presumably not working with kids.

As my late grandmother said, there are far more greater areas in the quest for gender equality than video games. This'll iron itself out, it's a first world problem. Female genital mutilation, sex trafficking, and slavery? That won't.

Eeeh...I agree and disagree here.

I do agree that it's a problem that will sort itself out - though maybe that process can be sped up, who knows.

The example in the eve-o forums I posted earlier - that was one of my reactions, that by saying "how can we change the game to appeal to women?" was asking the wrong questions.  Seemed to me that the reason for there being less women than men was simply that women don't play games as much.  Solve that wider problem first - which will eventually (hopefully) happen as time goes on.  Gaming as a hobby has social stigma.  For women, that's twofold.  Some guys really don't like what they perceive as muscling in on their hobby and most of the women I know will openly describe gaming as sad or pathetic, something to be grown out of, definitely a male thing to be disdained, eyes rolled at or grimly tolerated.

But...

There are more women and more people gaming than previously, I suspect - it has wider appeal and is bigger business.  Maybe all those facebook games will act as a gateway drug.  I dunno.  But the walls to the exclusive kingdom are clearly beginning to crumble, or there wouldn't be such a massive goddamn backlash at the idea of a) women gamers and b) women gamers who have the temerity to express opinions on the games they play. (and appears to be the same in other realms of geekery, such as comics and cosplay re:backlashes)

There's very much the MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls syndrome too. Some people are completely fine, others treat you like you are the first female they've ever encountered in their lives, others claim you cannot possibly exist due to the aforementioned rule, and if you try to insist that you actually do, well, you're obviously an attention whore.  So there's a lot of weird feelings and issues surrounding the idea of wimminz in games that do, p'raps, create barriers to entry if you aren't thick skinned or are unprepared for the wall of idiocy you may encounter.

Though there's also social stigma for playing games as an adult, regardless.  It's either considered as something for kids (despite age labels on adult titles) or for students before they start becoming a 'proper' adult.  I once played some free-online grindfest and got the usual a/s/l tripe.  The kid was 12 or 13 and wondering why I was there - shouldn't I be, like, doing more important things? furthering my career, getting a mortgage, and I'm not married yet?    I think I was about 25 at the time /o\

Personally, I see gaming as just another type of media - I would happily discuss games in the same way as books or films; but I'm aware that games are both unfairly denigrated, yet also has a lot of potential that we haven't yet tapped.  At least, I hope so.  Because being part of the action in such a visceral way, having a direct role in things, is kind of a unique aspect to gaming.  It's interesting.  Especially when turned to MMOs because then you have the social element as well (you don't have one player interacting with a storyline and a gameworld, you have many players interacting with a storyline and a gameworld and eachother).  Though I will admit to being somewhat jaded re: MMOs 

Which leads to the bit where I disagree with you.

As seeing gaming as another type of media, I'm interested in media criticism; discussion around something I enjoy, what the story is about, what perceptions people may have, how it compares to other things, what it's doing that might be novel or innovative.  What I liked or disliked, what other people liked or disliked, etc etc etc.

Gender theory, queer theory, feminist theory - whatevers, it's all media criticism and can all come into that if relevant.  Which, p'raps, sometimes it isn't, depending.  But discussion certainly around these topics certainly isn't bad.  Though sometimes things will get particularly knee-jerk which is unhelpful, and sometimes certain things stop being 'a way in' to a discussion or debate and just become blinkered or one-track. It's great to talk about media and be critical of it though, because it's what we're freely enjoying and consuming.   I'm (of course) not saying that we're all simple knuckle-draggers who will copy anything they see, or latent psychopaths whose violent video game tipped them over the edge and into a real-life killing spree.  But it still probably shouldn't be an entirely passive process; at least not all the time.  I don't think that's unimportant.

I do see what you're saying about the thought police, as I tend to see the above arguments (knuckle-draggers and psychopaths) as being based almost entirely on ignorance and fear, and that the "save the children" argument with regards to video games tends to lead to games for adults being blamed.  Once something is feared and blamed, it becomes easy to censor it.  I am vehemently against censoring creative media for adults.

That said.  Wanting to discuss, reasonably and rationally, problematic aspects of a piece of media is not one step away from censoring it.  Being critical of something doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, just that you're questioning and interpreting rather than passively receiving - which is a good thing in all media; books, films, advertising, games - whatevers.  Also it's interesting as a kind of cultural barometer; why are certain things being represented a certain way in a specific media? It doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's a social and cultural artefact - it's commentary as well as what's being commented on.

And obviously you can debate the importance. 

And sure, you can say that other gender issues are more important or certainly more urgent, such as what you list. (I've also heard the argument that it would be more useful to concentrate on more important issues like shelters for victims of domestic violence) though I'd argue that, if you feel the need, you can be active on those issues and discuss how women are portrayed in the media that we create, consume and reflect.  It's not necessarily an either/or (personally I think it's definitely not an either/or) There's lots of interesting things media suggests about society (such as guns OK, sex taboo, as a random example). 

Moving on to something completely different (because I don't want to create another reply for it)

I suppose this is a thin arguement, but I don't think GTA should ever be held up to a moral measurement device except to see how low it's gotten with the latest sequel. There is never anything good about GTA. Nothing good about it except gameplay and graphics value.

From driving habits, to racism, to crime, to the dialogue used in the game.... nothing in that game should be learned and used in real life. Ever.

I just find it to be uselessly beating a dead horse to say GTA is sexist. Yes. It's obvious. We know.

I absolutely agree with it being redundant to hold GTA up to a moral measurement.

Not trying to make a false analogy, but just relaying the connections in my head, reading the arguments for banninating porn I actually saw a comment in response to a newspaper article which was apparently irony-free and suggesting that porn was a bad role model for our children.

 
 
Porn is not supposed to be a role model for your children.  It serves an entirely different purpose.

Thing with GTA is, maybe less so with the others, but with GTA 4 I often found it humorous and well-written.  In some ways it reminded me of The Sopranos due to this.  So I kind of thought a lot of it was tongue-in-cheek and well-established within (and responding to) an already defined genre.

I personally feel the thing with representations and tropes is that you see them over and over again you see a pattern that reinforces itself.  Which is absolutely fair enough, as certain trends are worryingly endemic.  But...It's important to take things within it's own context too, on a case-by-case.  Maybe sometimes people are doing an entirely straight reading of something and (correctly) identifying "that's sexist!" but not considering that an entirely straight reading wasn't what it was going for.

[Lyn Farel]

47% of the gaming population are women, so not a minority. Though this does not say how much time they spend compared to men, nor which kind of games they favor.

Being a game dev myself, I could not ask more to see more women in the industry. Just 2 programmer women on a team of 35 devs is ridiculously low, but still something for a studio dealing in "hardcore" gaming, which is rather telling.

Video games are like cinema, or whatever tied to culture and entertainment. They have to be subject to critics, and I will certainly not deprive myself to do that eagerly, because culture in general, not just video games, is in such a state that it's rather frightening.

Video games, are a very young media that is still said to be in its teenage years, follows the exact same path than cinema did. Criticized and highly despised at the beginning, and then eventually carving its place in the society as culture, like all new things (in any case, video games are just the legacy of things that go back to prehistory : storytelling, roleplaying, and strategy games). The question is, when will video games eventually mature and become adult ? And is cinema adult enough to begin with ? For that precise reason, being critical, especially on sex equality in games, is important.