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[Makkal]

What does David Gaider not have a clue about?

[Vikarion]

Is it really so important who the messenger is, Vikarion? I think what should count is the message.

Well, yes, it sometimes does.

As an extreme example, suppose that you find out that a speaker on anti-semitism is a member of a white supremacist group. This might lead you to doubt the veracity of his conclusions about what steps are to be taken.

Now, I am certainly not saying that the speaker is anything so bad. But the writing for Dragon Age has a LOT of "-ism" problems with it, problems that were by no means mandated for fun or for story. And Bioware is also known for having essentially tried to tar people who had legitimate complaints about their product with the brushes of homophobia and sexism. So, in other words, yeah, I do think that this company and this guy are pretty much contaminated as a source for anything regarding these concerns.

Now, some of the people he references are definitely interesting, and I would recommend simply skipping him and his thoughts, and going straight to theirs.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

First, you're implying that people can't learn from their mistakes, which seems kind of msianthropic to me.

Second, I subscribe to the idea of not judging the message by who the messenger is. If what the member of the white supremacist group says on anti-semitism is right, I might wonder whether the speaker lives up to that, but it doesn't devalue what he said.

Or to put it another way: While I can understand that you doubt the conclusions of said Bioware employee because he is such, I can't understand that you apparently stop listening at that point and don't weigh what he says on it's own merit, to see whether that doubt is justified.

[Lyn Farel]

^That ?

Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.

Prejudice is the exact thing you are doing by dismissing the value behind the presentation of the guy just because of one of his many works (DA).

[Vikarion]

^That ?

Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.

Prejudice is the exact thing you are doing by dismissing the value behind the presentation of the guy just because of one of his many works (DA).

So, because I think that the guy is a flaming hypocrite and unreliable in regard to these issues due to his past work, you think that that makes me sexist, homophobic, and etc?

[Nmaro Makari]

Vikarion, you should try googling the words "bioware" and "sexism".

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Makkal]

How is David Gaider a flaming hypocrite?

His work isn't perfect but he's never claimed it is. He's been rather open to criticism from a social justice perspective.

You can't blame him for BioWare's entire output as he's the lead writer for only one game line. A game line that's gotten a fair bit of praise for its handling of some issues. 

[Lyn Farel]

^That ?

Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.

Prejudice is the exact thing you are doing by dismissing the value behind the presentation of the guy just because of one of his many works (DA).

So, because I think that the guy is a flaming hypocrite and unreliable in regard to these issues due to his past work, you think that that makes me sexist, homophobic, and etc?

Uh no, that is definitely not what I meant.

Just on the assumption that the guy was (maybe ? he was not alone in his team btw) behind some fuckups like in DA as you says, which constitutes just ONE of his many works, you call his opinion and the content of his presentation out for prejudice. You are the one guilty of prejudice here, that's a pretty bad ad hominem to make (poisoning the well ?), rather than addressing the damn point.

That's would be just like calling the content of your speech full of prejudice and irrelevant just because you fucked up in the past on some of your work at some point.

[Vikarion]

How is David Gaider a flaming hypocrite?

His work isn't perfect but he's never claimed it is. He's been rather open to criticism from a social justice perspective.

You can't blame him for BioWare's entire output as he's the lead writer for only one game line. A game line that's gotten a fair bit of praise for its handling of some issues.

Well, I could go through a long exposition of the sexist bullcrap to be found throughout Dragon Age, but I won't. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who has played the game, and considers those issues. Let's just consider one case.

The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.

Keep in mind, aside from Leilana and Zevran (who are, apparently, bi), this is quite possibly the ONLY LGBT character in the game. And Leilana and Zevran are both - you got it - assassins for hire. Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.

...really Bioware? Really? And I'm supposed to listen to this guy?

Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes, that sure didn't stop them from buying as many copies of a game containing a casual-sex loving gay elf. I maintain, however, that Sten was more attractive.

[Vikarion]

That's would be just like calling the content of your speech full of prejudice and irrelevant just because you fucked up in the past on some of your work at some point.

Perhaps you are right. The problem seems to be (at least from my perspective) that he thinks that he and his have done a fairly progressive job, and his company and supporters have not shied away from calling those who criticized their games "homophobes", among other things. That's a particularly asshole-ish thing to do, and so, my opinion is that he's poisoned his own well.

[hellgremlin]

How is David Gaider a flaming hypocrite?

His work isn't perfect but he's never claimed it is. He's been rather open to criticism from a social justice perspective.

You can't blame him for BioWare's entire output as he's the lead writer for only one game line. A game line that's gotten a fair bit of praise for its handling of some issues.

Well, I could go through a long exposition of the sexist bullcrap to be found throughout Dragon Age, but I won't. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who has played the game, and considers those issues. Let's just consider one case.

The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.

Keep in mind, aside from Leilana and Zevran (who are, apparently, bi), this is quite possibly the ONLY LGBT character in the game. And Leilana and Zevran are both - you got it - assassins for hire. Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.

...really Bioware? Really? And I'm supposed to listen to this guy?

Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes, that sure didn't stop them from buying as many copies of a game containing a casual-sex loving gay elf. I maintain, however, that Sten was more attractive.

Bis aren't LGBT? I thought that's what the B stood for

[Makkal]

Harren and Wade are also a couple. Hespith is the name of Branka's lover. Marjoline was Leliana's mentor/lover but she's bisexual.

The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.

Written by Jennifer.

Leilana

Written by Sheryl.

Zevran

Hey look, a character written by David.

Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.

Except for the part where he falls in love with you.

Other romancable characters of David's: Morigan, Viconia, and Fenris. All start with ‘this is just physical, I feel nothing for you’ and all end with them declaring their everlasting love.

It’s almost as though David uses a similar love story regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the characters.

Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes…

Good thing David never said that. There are BioWare fans who are queer-hating assholes, however, and like most internet bigots, tend to be loud and annoying.

Your criticism is ‘I don’t like the way Dragon Age handled queer characters, so nothing David Gaider says about sex or sexuality matters.’

This ignores the fact that 1) Dragon Age’s inclusion of queer characters is widely lauded and 2) fans have criticized social justice elements in the DA franchise and David has been quite responsive.

And honestly, even if the presentation of same-sex desire in ME and DA was done poorly*, BioWare and David Gaider are still doing better than 90% of the game industry. They’re still one of the few game companies to even attempt to make a social stance.  A lead writer is out there talking to and engaging with the gaming community about these things. I think that’s great.

*And I don't think it was.

[Vikarion]

Harren and Wade are also a couple. Hespith is the name of Branka's lover. Marjoline was Leliana's mentor/lover but she's bisexual.

Ah, I did not know that Harren and Wade are a couple. I don't think that there's any confirmation of that in the game. As for Hespith, certainly, but she's not exactly a positive depiction either. And Marjoline is portrayed as being flatly evil and irredeemable.

The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.

Written by Jennifer.

Alright. I was under the impression that Gaider was the lead writer, and presumably in charge of the plot. Whether he is or not, however, I still think that that depiction is flat out horrible.

Leilana

Written by Sheryl.

Tell Sheryl that not all empowered, seductive women are secretly religious nut-cases who just need someone else to rescue them, then.

Zevran

Hey look, a character written by David.

Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.

Except for the part where he falls in love with you.

Ah, sorry. See, I usually end up going after Morrigan. Because she often seems like the only sane one of the bunch.

Other romancable characters of David's: Morigan, Viconia, and Fenris. All start with ‘this is just physical, I feel nothing for you’ and all end with them declaring their everlasting love.

It’s almost as though David uses a similar love story regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the characters.

David wrote Viconia?

Well, fuck. I guess I have to give him a little credit, then. Minor apologies. 

Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes…

Good thing David never said that. There are BioWare fans who are queer-hating assholes, however, and like most internet bigots, tend to be loud and annoying.

That's a bit of sarcasm and hyperbole. My point is that, for all that some people want to accuse people who didn't like Dragon Age/DA2 or Mass Effect of homophobia, the reality is that some of those sold really well, while still including LGBT elements. If the average gamer is as homophobic as he seems to imply, that doesn't make sense.

Your criticism is ‘I don’t like the way Dragon Age handled queer characters, so nothing David Gaider says about sex or sexuality matters.’

This ignores the fact that 1) Dragon Age’s inclusion of queer characters is widely lauded and 2) fans have criticized social justice elements in the DA franchise and David has been quite responsive.

And honestly, even if the presentation of same-sex desire in ME and DA was done poorly*, BioWare and David Gaider are still doing better than 90% of the game industry. They’re still one of the few game companies to even attempt to make a social stance.  A lead writer is out there talking to and engaging with the gaming community about these things. I think that’s great.

*And I don't think it was.

Actually, my criticism is "seeing as we have much better sources for opinions on this subject, why are we listening to Gaider?"

and

"Since Bioware has such a bad history RE: blaming their fans, why are we listening to what they have to say about gamer demographics?"

It's not that I don't think that there are homophobes out there. I happen to know - in part by personal experience - that there are. I also happen to think that game depictions of them could be better. But I also happen to have the same opinion of Bioware as one tends to have about a viper in one's bed: not to be cuddled with, not to be trusted, and you probably shouldn't take advice from it, either.

Here are a few instances of Bioware blaming its fans:
http://www.gamefront.com/dr-zeschuk-me3-fans-had-unreasonable-expectations-for-ending/
http://blogs.bettor.com/Anonymous-Bioware-Insider-blames-fans-for-SWTOR-Video-Games-Update-a173317
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/05/ea-in-full-damage-control-mode-points-to-anti-gay-hate-mail/
http://moarpowah.com/2011/03/16/commentary-fan-backlash-to-dragon-age-ii/

As well as pulling general bullshit - compare the following:
http://www.gamefront.com/the-mass-effect3-ending-backlash-continues-to-gain-steam/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/15/mass-effect-3-ending-provoked-a-bigger-fan-reaction-than-any-other-in-video-game-history/

So, let's be honest: I think Bethesda has done a much better job of portraying gays and lesbians as normal and accepted people in their games. And it has not escaped my attention that you can marry who you want in that game. And yet, somehow, Bethesda has apparently not become a giant target of immense homophobia.

Perhaps that's the sex scenes in ME/DA. Could be. Or perhaps Bioware just isn't being truthful. Or perhaps Bioware pisses off its fan base to the point where they'll fling any sort of poo at them - they haven't managed that with me, but they got close enough for me to understand the feeling. In any case, it's probably pretty understandable that some people would have a strong negative reaction towards being lectured by Bioware employees on any subject.

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

So, let's be honest: I think Bethesda has done a much better job of portraying gays and lesbians as normal and accepted people in their games. And it has not escaped my attention that you can marry who you want in that game. And yet, somehow, Bethesda has apparently not become a giant target of immense homophobia.

Given that I've not played a massive amount of Skyrim and Fallout (both 3 and NV), take what I say with a hefty dose of salt... but I frankly find that Bethesda's ability to seriously characterise is lacking.  That's not necessarily a comment on their ability, but on their focus.  They make grand open-world games - that's great.  But from everything I've read, the marriage system in Skyrim is tacked on and a complete joke.  It's treated like an achievement hunt rather than a serious roleplaying commitment.  You don't play Bethesda games for good characters or engaging plotlines (although don't get me wrong, there are some fun ones), you play them to go wherever the hell you want and stab random monsters.  Bioware doesn't do open world, so it by necessity has to focus on character and character relationships, so attention gets drawn there.

I'm not saying that Bethesda's 'marry anyone' approach isn't worthy of some praise.  I am saying that it amounts to 'pick a rock.  We don't mind if it's blue or red, up to you.' rather than actually being any real stance or commitment to mechanics.

...yeah, I'm not particularly enamored with Bethesda's stuff, in case you didn't guess.

Interestingly enough, the game that's hit me the hardest in terms of relationships and connections with people is actually a Neverwinter Nights mod called A Dance with Rogues.  Very NSFW, and at first glance it's kind of silly, with a fair chunk of dialogue-based sex and such... but I don't remember the last time I got that drawn into a character's fate.  It pulls absolutely zero punches, and some of them are pretty brutal.  Worth a look if you still have that old epic floating around.

[Aelisha Montenagre]

The biggest point I tend to take home from lectures, blogs and other media dealing with this topic, is that a writing team of between one and a dozen people, is never going to be representative of the sexual views of the 'mainstream' ( Straight, Cis, Missionary-for-the-purpose-of-procreation [I jest]) population - and then we go and get into deep and difficult territory because the mainstream is pretty much just society kidding itself that what goes on in the bedroom is a social issue at all (we turn it into one, but that's a whole other debate). 

Consider the Martian scenario.  A being from space comes down and requires a full breakdown of human sexual practices, for any and all reasons, combinations and so forth, but only wants 12 accounts.  There'd be outrage!  This visitor from the stars is going to get 12 points of view out of 7 billion, not to mention this assumes that the visitor gets to 'fairly and evenly pick 12 different views'. 

Now let's switch back to reality.  We're asking the same of our writers and developers here, in a society that is incapable of fairly and evenly choosing, in which period-accurate sexual/gender issues may still be used to pursue dubious literary and media agendas (dubious as in against freedom of self expression/personal fulfillment).  Many attempts at equality come across as 'throwing them a bone' or worse, actually are tongue in cheek appeasement with a bit of rib elbowing around the water cooler at a groups expense.  Others, for instance Scarlet Blade, are just so eye-scorchingly bad that one hopes they are a joke at the expense of the stereotypical internet neck-beard power fantasy. 

The point I am trying to make, is that change starts with the consumer.  Companies will continue to sell myths and legends about otherwise normal, if private, acts - so long as it sells.  So long as it keeps them in the papers for the right reasons and so long as people exist that will see outrage as hype and taboo breaking as the highest form of plot development (pro-tip - it really isn't). 

We need to ask higher standards of writers and developers - not just to combat social injustice at large, but to bring sexual representation up to a period-accurate or setting specific, and MATURE level. 

If I'm playing in a low fantasy borderline medieval setting with gender equality (Skyrim is a good example of the 'it just happened' female empowerment trope in such a setting), I don't want to then be smashed in the face (Skyrim doesn't do this) with plot devices in which gender or sex becomes a critical social issue (unless such has already been identified as key to the setting - for instance equality is new/barely tolerated/not universal). 

I am starting to lose my thread of thought, so I will wrap it up.  These issues are huge, and the best thing I think that games can do is make it clear that they cannot hope to represent the whole slew of sexual/gender issues that plague our still maturing society.  We're asking of developers and writers what we dare not ask of ourselves, of the 'old fashioned' grandparent who sometimes talks in hushed tones about 'them gays' and what many consider less important than the next four to five years of tax policy when engaging with their political representatives. 

Once the consumer base identifies these alternative lifestyles as legitimate, private choices that are not custom crafted as discussion topics or spectacle, we will be on the way to raising and education a generation of writers that don't see the inclusion of a homosexual engineer as a vital plot point, but as organic happenstance complete with a back story.  He's not the gay engineer because he is gay, and an engineer, a trope set up to turn the typical 'grease, guts and gleaming chrome' world of star ship engineering on it's head.  He will be a man who grew, studied, tried his hand at his first adult experiences (if such a conversation comes up - romance arc nostalgia dialogue maybe?), came out (or maybe not?), but through it all those sexual experiences just define a facet of this man.  He's a goddamned engineer.  I care about if he has the engine running and how those hull repairs are going, not where he's parking the pork bus.  Unless I'm pursuing the damned romance arc.  In the latter case, let's push for a generation of writers who see sexuality and sex as more than the act.