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[Louella Dougans]

as a whole, the rp community, like the wider EVE community, has moved away from the view that was present earlier in EVE, that actions have consequences.

CCP promote this with their "Power of 2".

Buy/sell characters, to avoid consequence.
Buy sec.status, to avoid consequence.
2nd account to avoid consequence.

This has resulted in a situation where consequences for actions are only for people on the margins of "the community". Today, shoot blood raiders, tomorrow are one, next week, be a 24th Crusader. No consequences for this are expected, and anyone acting as if those actions do have consequences gets shouted down OOC.

"These consequences aren't fun!", well, why not make them fun ? instead of expecting people not to take actions of someone into account ?

Or is this all this ~mercurial and fickle empyrean beholden to none~ thing again ?

Consequence free environment. vOv

[Aelisha Montenagre]

Alt culture only makes it harder to pursue revenge/justice/vendettas.  A lot are painfully obvious.  Many, such as mine and Ava's are publicly known.  Regardless of any flimsy pretence of IC/OOC divide in situations of extremis (I.E. someone has it is for someone else), the mod-enforced and mob-enforced communities in eve (corporations, the rp community, 3rd party forums etc) are well equipped to detect, and in dire situations 'out', and in worse situations cut off the alts of repeat offenders from the areas in which they misbehave. 

Even if someone were to evade the many means by which this may come about, it will restrict their ability to pursue what they once did, with the same fervour that garnered them the ill-will of a group to start with. 

Simply put - alts mitigate but do not circumvent the response to anti-social behaviour on the part of the alt-holder.  Some may argue they might even assist in rehabilitation, as there is a culture of 'zero tolerance once over THIS line' in eve communities in general, which encourages dire offenders who may have reassessed their behaviours to change tack and maybe even improve themselves on a personal level, to embrace alts as a way to get back in for purely benign purposes.  Wishful thinking maybe, but in a situation such as this where you have no choice what people do with their PLEX time/money, I find it far more constructive to consider the positives that can come out of the situation and 'judge by actions' characters on an individual basis. 

Repercussions are ten and penny, but people just don't seem to want to escalate, even when doing such would be greatly to their benefit and the benefit of their like-minded peers.

[Louella Dougans]

Repercussions are ten and penny, but people just don't seem to want to escalate, even when doing such would be greatly to their benefit and the benefit of their like-minded peers.

A couple years back, someone wrote on the IGS, about having worked with the Blood Raiders, and obtained a Cruor of experimental design, iirc.
An Amarr loyalist character, declared war on them.
This led to some threads, on this forum, and on the IGS, where it was argued that the Amarr loyalist was "going too far", and the end result was that some people left the RP community entirely.
The view on this forum at that time, was largely that the Amarr person was right to declare war.

Today, people offer to assist the Blood raiders, then get upset if this fact is ever mentioned. People that actively assisted pirate factions to assault civilian populations, get upset if these facts are ever mentioned.

The OOC bile and hatred thrown out when these facts are just mentioned, is a clear indication that taking actions, such as wars, would be orders of magnitude less enjoyable, that taking action is just going to be tedious and uninteresting, so no actions are taken, because people have better things to do in a game, that they play for entertainment, such as interacting with IC enemies that embrace the consequences, and are willing to RP with those facts.

So, vOv

[Lyn Farel]

Some people will always favor gameplay fun above all, and some will prefer RP consistency every time.

Usually leads to OOC conflicts or misunderstandings.

I agree though that mentalities change.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I don't know, it seems to me that the RP community certainly holds a grudge.

Look at I-Red. One ridiculous moment of assisting the FDU and now they are pretty much black-balled in the Caldari Loyalist RP community. I know people who are, IC and OOC, hostile to each other over events that happened before they even started playing Eve.

Pyre Falcon deploys to Metropolis for three weeks - an IC friendship between Ava and Pieter that was months in the making is destroyed for good.

My RP always has IC consequences - which is the way I like it.

[BloodBird]

Repercussions are ten and penny, but people just don't seem to want to escalate, even when doing such would be greatly to their benefit and the benefit of their like-minded peers.

A couple years back, someone wrote on the IGS, about having worked with the Blood Raiders, and obtained a Cruor of experimental design, iirc.
An Amarr loyalist character, declared war on them.
This led to some threads, on this forum, and on the IGS, where it was argued that the Amarr loyalist was "going too far", and the end result was that some people left the RP community entirely.
The view on this forum at that time, was largely that the Amarr person was right to declare war.

Today, people offer to assist the Blood raiders, then get upset if this fact is ever mentioned. People that actively assisted pirate factions to assault civilian populations, get upset if these facts are ever mentioned.

The OOC bile and hatred thrown out when these facts are just mentioned, is a clear indication that taking actions, such as wars, would be orders of magnitude less enjoyable, that taking action is just going to be tedious and uninteresting, so no actions are taken, because people have better things to do in a game, that they play for entertainment, such as interacting with IC enemies that embrace the consequences, and are willing to RP with those facts.

So, vOv

That was awesome.

Not the whole "I'm leaving" drama but the RP in general. I miss that for sure.

This tread details one of my pet-peeves, really. I see it all the time in EVE, it's happened so many times over the years that it's basically a standard and anything that breaks it is a deviation from the norm: Character A betrays faction Z. Character B supports faction Z but makes little noise about it. After a round in faction X, (at war with Z) character A leaves for Z again or takes a round in Y. (Also an enemy of Z.) Eventually when character A returns to the door of Z, character B will welcome A back with minor fuzz, if any. As opposed to say, telling character A to go fuck him/herself.

Merdaneth elaborated on this earlier and it's been discussed allot. One of my biggest gripes is the extreme lack of consequences for any actions in this game, and as for myself, I've made it a point to provide consequences as much as I can, when and if I can. I would personally hope that more people start doing this and react more to these kind of situations like their characters supposedly would, however A) I can't know better than the owners of other toons how those toons really will react and B) It's not my place to dictate what others should do anyway.

Still, I will hold out hope that one day the IGS and players in general will start treating betrayals, defections, chilling with the enemy and general fraternization for what it is and react accordingly. Until then...

There are also a number of posts in this tread I would like to respond to directly, but it's summer, it's hot and I've no real time. Another day, I guess. I just hope this topic is still relevant by then...

[Gottii]

I'm rather baffled by the "omg a wardec!"

I always viewed being wardecced by another RP organization as a reward, not a punishment.

I mean, I get that I was always a bit PVP leaning, but isnt RP wars and conflicts why we RP in a game about wars and conflicts?

[Havohej]

I've been rather annoyed by what seems to be a prevailing theme on the IGS of IC posts along the lines of "Oh, not this shit again" in regards to long-standing, traditional and core-PF enmities - Amarr-Minmatar and Gallente-Caldari, for instance (to choose low-hanging examples).  Minmatar A makes aggressive/antagonistic comment directed toward Amarr faction in some thread, Gallente B spams the smiley and makes snarky comments about Minmatar needing to "get over it" or some such nonsense.

I've also had to shake my head over seeing examples of what's been mentioned here with PC faction betrayers/turncoats cycling through the factions, returning to their original factions (for however long before jumping back to some other group, enemy or otherwise) and somehow remaining loved by all.  But then, I'm the guy who removed his corp from Star Fraction, giving up at-cost and below-cost Tech 3 cruisers and lolTitanBridge hotdrops because my character couldn't condone and/or be associated (even indirectly) with Revan Nefaris and Jade Constantine's relationship with same - despite not really giving a flying fuck about it OOC.  (Granted, it's well known that I didn't like Revan's player, but as I never had to RP with her, what did I care who Jade was 'with' IC?)

I believe wholeheartedly in IC consequences for IC actions.  That won't change.  I, like BloodBird, hold out hope for the return to what I think of as better days for RP.  Until then, I will take whatever opportunity presents itself to point out inconsistencies and conflicts in IC posts with IC posts of my (Havohej's) own.  And if some people don't like it... well.

In prison, if I pissed someone off to the point they started talking trash, I'd tell them to "put blood in my mouth."  In EVE, if I piss someone off, Havo will tell them what Jade used to always tell people:  Wardec me.

EDIT: What it comes down to for me is that I'm in no way obligated to respect or participate in anyone's retcons.  Used to be an Amarr loyalist/Sanshabot/Blood Raider/whatever?  Then Havo's not likely to like/trust you if he's aware of it or becomes aware of it.  But he is likely to call you out on it if he catches you pretending otherwise (and if I cba to post on the IGS or RP ingame aside from shooting at things).

[Laurentis Thiesant]

What the big H said.

[Samira Kernher]

What the big H said.

[Saede Riordan]

What the big H said.

[Lyn Farel]

Well wouldn't it be nice ? I would love to see that more, but I still think that such cases continue to exist, fortunately. Everything has not gotten suddenly sour and my own character is the prime example of this, and she is far from being the type to make a lot of enemies, but she still managed to do it. Look at groups like PIE who can hold grudges almost indefinitely, and my char is still getting the flak from them after so many years for what was, at worst, a little annoyance. These are testimonies to that still being present in the community, and still surviving even with that echo chamber syndrome we sometimes have growing. Granted, i'm maybe not part of the latter so maybe it puts me out of the equation.

As much as this situation with PIE pisses me off OOCly for totally different reasons, I for one gladly welcome it every time I get a remember of it, because it would be no fun otherwise.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

<snip>
But then, I'm the guy who removed his corp from Star Fraction, giving up at-cost and below-cost Tech 3 cruisers and lolTitanBridge hotdrops because my character couldn't condone and/or be associated (even indirectly) with Revan Nefaris and Jade Constantine's relationship with same - despite not really giving a flying fuck about it OOC.  (Granted, it's well known that I didn't like Revan's player, but as I never had to RP with her, what did I care who Jade was 'with' IC?)
<snip>

Now I think on it.

Arnulf (the character) thinks that Havohej is vermin (mainly because of the freighter load of freed slaves he had killed) & would cheerfully biomass him if he could. However he did approve of that because he felt that an anarchist revolutionary romancing a crazed Sani Sabik elitist was hypocritical to a fairly obnoxious degree.

Please note these are IC attitudes. As a player I'm sure Jade (the character) had good reasons for going her way and I don't consider her, or her player, as doing anything wrong. I just dislike the character IC as a consequence. It also means my character is curious as to the mindset and upbringing that made her justify all of this to herself. Without any evidence to the contrary he tends to think of her as a rich brat playing at revolution to pass the time.

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

Gotta agree here - and I personally am a recipient of 'faction forgiveness', to some extent.  Reppy is on record as a former Angel, a number of people know that she danced the Blood Raider tune during a period of total mental breakdown, she's a firm supporter of the Khanid Kingdom, and has gone on record numerous times stating that emancipation is a bad idea.

Yet to see one negative consequence.  Still got friends everywhere.  Closest thing I have to an IC enemy is DK, and Reppy's baited the crap out of her.  I've just sort of shrugged and rolled with it, but it's got to the point (both IC and OOC) that Reppy's effectively stopped pretending a lot of shit just because it doesn't seem to matter to anyone.  Not even as careful as I used to be about appearing friendly with Sabik.  I'm not about to go burning bridges just for the hell of it, but I am - and always have been - fully prepared for someone to come gunning for me, literally or figuratively.

Speaking for myself, I do hold grudges - as they make sense IC, anyway.  Lilly Terranova was mud in Reppy's mind for ages, but in the end just gave up because it no longer seemed important.  Anyone who is or has been a Sansha will never be a friend of Reppy's.  Other examples I won't bring up.

[Lyn Farel]

There is also something else that is directly implanted in the very PF surrounding our characters that might be potentially a huge cause of that faction forgiveness syndrome. We play independent/freelance capsuleers. Above the usual fickle facet they have, the simple fact that our characters can at best claim that they support X or Y does not make them part of X or Y. Eventually when I think of capsuleer conflicts like we have, either through war decs or other things, what is the point of all of this ? Flexing our muscles and see who is better at war or at rhetorics ? We could not exist or not having any conflicts, or at the contrary, more of them, that it would eventually not change the slightest thing for our own factions.

Still wondering if it applies to live events too or not though. Live events completely lack consequences for one's involvement in them. Eventually I can go claim I support the Feds at Colelie the first time and then the Rep the second time and claim "BUT I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND". Totally consequences free.

We are volatile, and if not OOCly, then ICly since it's more or less PF that wants that.