Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ollie]

I'm not overly enthralled by the way they've chosen to go with it. I don't know why exactly, but I suspect I'd have preferred to see some of the more subtle political means the CEP and the other seven megacorp CEOs have at their disposal for cutting him from the herd and leaving him isolated and exposed to whatever payback his various enemies could think of for him. To me, the whole 'we're declaring him a terrorist, have at him' all seems a little forced and 'rapid' particularly as the Dragonaurs and the CPD's association with them have been out in the open for some time now.

Then again, it's an MMO storyline not some le Carre thriller.

[Lyn Farel]

The Eve Storyline has always favored the tropes of epicness in the recent years.

[Hamish Grayson]

I was kind of hoping for the New Raata Empire myself rather than return to the pre TEA megacorp / elitist society.

No such thing.   It came into being with TEA.

[Korsavius]

To me, this whole situation seems completely plausible. Especially given the fact that Heth has a continuously deteriorating mental condition, you can never really tell what the hell he is going to do next. I look forward to putting a superheated plasma charge through his skull.

[Aria Jenneth]

I was kind of hoping for the New Raata Empire myself rather than return to the pre TEA megacorp / elitist society.

No such thing.   It came into being with TEA.

Er ... no, don't think so. "Ruthless" predated TEA, though it was also Tony G. The "Brothers of Freedom" thing predated and warmed up to TEA, but not all of it was Tony G.

Also, it just makes sense. "Elitist," if you apply it to actual high-performers as opposed to their dynasties, is a near-synonym for "meritocratic." "Meritocratic" also easily morphs into "dynastic" when the children can gain a leg up from the resources of the parents. That's one of the reasons Imperial China's "exams" for highly-placed jobs could indeed result in some poor scholar being promoted to a regional governorship, but more often it was the children of existing high officials and other wealthy sorts who could (and did) pay for their kids to get a top-notch education.

It may not have been spelled out quite so clearly before, but there's long been an undercurrent of the Caldari top tier becoming increasingly corrupt. The fact that it's also long been a Gallentean IGS talking point doesn't make it any less true, though it might make the Caldari less likely to listen.

[Hamish Grayson]

Considering the BoF arc had the EXACT same plot as TEA including the Broker making things happen behind the scenes (I was there) I consider it to be the start of the TEA nonsense.  Clearly Tony had a hand in that, and clearly it was the in-game set up for the events of TEA .   The retcons to Kaalakiota started with BoF and is when I metamorphosed from CCP's number one gushing fanboi to a card carrying member of the bittervet club.   It was also the real trigger of CAIN/4th's dropping out of RP and the reason I've mentioned before that I hope they kill Oirtsuu off too and bring back the old Kaalakiota.

Every new BoF article or event was a huge 'WTF?!  Who the hell is writing this stuff, do they even know anything about their own cannon'? 

You can split hairs about how I worded my above statement and which bit of TonyG's trash was published first but my point still stands that TonyG invented the Robocop-esque Caldari state where all CEOs are either This guy



Or this guy



Which is what I'm pretty sure Altarica was referring to.   Before CCP let TonyG take a big steaming crap on us, that's not how the State was.

Granted, in the pre-TonyG State still had cyberpunk themes to it and there was sure to have been the odd executive operating with the OCP corporate handbook but they'd have been a minority and not a member of the CEP, especially not within Kaalakiota or one of it's major subsidiaries like say Caldari Constructions.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I think you may be look at things with rose-colored glasses there a bit, Hamish. I don't really remember the Broker being a part of the BoF arc at all, and I didn't have much of a problem with the BoF arc myself. Yes, the stuff leading up to TEA with misery factories and other ridiculous shit was stupid, but that doesn't mean that everything was hunky-dory in the State prior to that. I have little doubt that the megacorporations did a lot of shit that many of us would think was a little beyond the pale, but like you I do not think that they systematically mistreat their employees as a matter of course.

I tend to agree with Aria that while the ideal of the Caldari State was always that of a meritocracy, it would be hard to completely drain an element of nepotism or inheritance from society. If nothing else, simply the fact that you know the right people is a large part of business everywhere, and one of the big reasons a business degree from somewhere like Harvard is more valuable than a degree from my alma mater, even if the level of education is the same -- it's all about who you know. While this may be muted somewhat in Caldari society, assuming that the Caldari do not have a 100% estate tax, it's also likely that wealth will remain somewhat concentrated.

This is not to say that social mobility is nil in the State; I'm sure that it's possible for someone to rise from near the bottom to near the top, especially in the right corporation. I believe both Mens Reppola and his competitor for the Ishukone CEO position were portrayed as originally being rather low level when they started, for instance. But in other corporations, I can definitely see that being extremely unlikely -- Hyasyoda and Wiyrkomi, for instance.

I have always seen the Caldari as being extremely heavily cyberpunk influenced; it's important to note, as I did in the Caldari Dialogues, that this doesn't mean that life sucks for 90% of the population. It does mean that corporate bigwigs have a great deal of power, however, and are going to be loathe to get rid of that. Even the most considerate CEO is still going to want to remain CEO as long as possible; it is only when his position is untenable that he is going to admit defeat and either resign or...take a more permanent route.

I do not see any conflict between a corporation wanting to take care of its employees while at the same time treating them as any other asset. Often, one of the biggest expenses for a business is hiring and training employees -- to toss them away like used tissue paper is foolish. On the other hand, to spend more than you have to to keep them happy and healthy is also foolish. The worst part of TEA was the stupidity of the corporations -- mistreat your employees horribly AND skimp on security? Sure, that's a GREAT idea! How could that go wrong! Go in guns blazing while evidently everything is being broadcast on live TV? Can't see how that could be a public relations nightmare, nosiree. That was the most frustrating part.

In large part, the Caldari State always operated on a sort of consensual pipe dream; that the leaders of the State were the best qualified because they had proved themselves, that everyone was working for the same ends, that it was possible to go from the bottom to the top simply through hard work. As long as times are good, the leaders of the State actually do well (and most of the time they do, because an underperforming CEO will be devoured by the members of the elite angling for his or her position), and the right amount of bread and circuses keep everyone else happy, everything is cool. It's only when things start to fall apart that that mutual delusion starts to break down.

[Hamish Grayson]

I think you may be look at things with rose-colored glasses there a bit, Hamish. I don't really remember the Broker being a part of the BoF arc at all

'The Patriot'

[Svetlana Scarlet]

'The Patriot'

Unless you have something I missed, I don't think that is necessarily the Broker. An enigmatic name does not mean it's always the Broker.

[Hamish Grayson]

'The Patriot'

Unless you have something I missed, I don't think that is necessarily the Broker. An enigmatic name does not mean it's always the Broker.

It was Hurs who at the time put all the clues together and figured out he was the broker and don't recall anybody disputing his logic.   Considering the next major Caldari related story we got from CCP was The Broker instigating a another major state rebellion to achieve his goals in the form of TEA I assume TonyG had simply been allowed to rewrite the story he had in mind via a book instead of a live event.  That was about the time he was promoted. I lost all the logs some time ago.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

It was Hurs who at the time put all the clues together and figured out he was the broker.   I lost all the logs some time ago.

Hurs also tended to let his conspiratorial paranoia get ahead of himself sometimes. I think that may be a perfectly legitimate theory, but I don't know that it is necessarily the case.

[Hamish Grayson]

It was Hurs who at the time put all the clues together and figured out he was the broker.   I lost all the logs some time ago.

Hurs also tended to let his conspiratorial paranoia get ahead of himself sometimes. I think that may be a perfectly legitimate theory, but I don't know that it is necessarily the case.

He did that before TEA was published, and at the time his argument made sense to me, but yes I do agree with your assessment of his persona.

[Hamish Grayson]

I think you may be look at things with rose-colored glasses there a bit, Hamish. I don't really remember the Broker being a part of the BoF arc at all, and I didn't have much of a problem with the BoF arc myself. Yes, the stuff leading up to TEA with misery factories and other ridiculous shit was stupid,

The misery factories and other ridiculous shit were part of the BoF arc.

I tend to agree with Aria that while the ideal of the Caldari State was always that of a meritocracy, it would be hard to completely drain an element of nepotism or inheritance from society

I never said the pre-Tony Caldari executives were saints, and I did indicate that there were probably some evil bastards in powerful positions.   However, the state was not originally written as having an executive caste that was categorically hedonistic and corrupt and PF suggested that most executives had a sense of duty indoctrinated into them.   Also, while in many corps (especially patriots) the executive caste ran along family lines – that DID NOT suggest rampant neopotism which is defined as favoritism granted to relatives regardless of merit.   If, because i'm motivated not to see the family name dishonored, I invest a considerable time and money in educating and training my child from the moment she can walk there is a good chance she'll be component.   If she's not, then either her cousin gets the job or I'll order her to marry this up and coming kid from the creche and he'll get the job.   Keeping things in the family does not mean they don't merit the position necessarily, especially when there is an internal family culture to make damn well sure it's members do merit their jobs.

I have always seen the Caldari as being extremely heavily cyberpunk influenced; it's important to note, as I did in the Caldari Dialogues, that this doesn't mean that life sucks for 90% of the population.

The old Caldari racial description, the one from the time frame we are debating now said most Caldari enjoyed a better standard of living than the other four empires.

Standard of living refers to the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities available to a certain socioeconomic class in a certain geographic area. The standard of living includes factors such as income, quality and availability of employment, class disparity, poverty rate, quality and affordability of housing, hours of work required to purchase necessities, gross domestic product, inflation rate, number of vacation days per year, affordable (or free) access to quality healthcare, quality and availability of education, life expectancy, incidence of disease, cost of goods and services, infrastructure, national economic growth, economic and political stability, political and religious freedom, environmental quality, climate and safety.

If all those factors were better for a Caldari citizen than any other person in the Cluster, am I really looking at things through rose tinted glasses?  Really read the whole quote there and think about what that means.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

The misery factories and other ridiculous shit were part of the BoF arc.

I don't remember that being necessarily the case. I remember labor conditions being an issue, but the chronicles that portrayed them as simply ridiculous didn't start coming out until the TEA time period.

I never said the pre-Tony Caldari executives were saints, and I did indicate that there were probably some evil bastards in powerful positions.   However, the state was not originally written as having an executive caste that was categorically hedonistic and corrupt and PF suggested that most executives had a sense of duty indoctrinated into them.   Also, while in many corps (especially patriots) the executive caste ran along family lines – that DID NOT suggest rampant neopotism which is defined as favoritism granted to relatives regardless of merit.   If I invest a considerable time and money in educating and training my child from the moment she can walk and talk because I’m motivated not to see the family name dishonored does mean there is a good chance she’ll at least somewhat competent.   If she's not, then either her cousin gets the job or I'll order her to marry this up and coming kid from the creche and he'll get the job.

Well, that still tends to sound like nepotism to me, albeit a milder form; there's definitely an "old boys (and girls) club" mentality among the Caldari upper echelons, I'm sure. I can see your point -- the fact remains that the meritocracy does not directly translate to a lot of social mobility, because those with the biggest advantages have the best means to keep them, and those without the advantages have a hard time competing with them. "Merit" in the State then is less about any inherent ability and more about those with the biggest advantages maintaining them.

The old Caldari racial description, the one from the time frame we are debating now said most Caldari enjoyed a better standard of living than the other four empires.

If all those factors were better for a Caldari citizen than any other person in the Cluster, am I really looking at things through rose tinted glasses?

Keep in mind that's for the average Caldari citizen, and also keep in mind that the Caldari may not see quality of life in the same way as other people. Particularly the section on political freedom seems somewhat out of step with Caldari thought (for the average Caldari, you don't have much of a say in politics at all). It also probably depends a lot on where you live in the State -- in big cities on central worlds, I bet conditions are a lot nicer for people regardless of occupation than it is on some godforsaken rock in the middle of nowhere, simply because you have nowhere else to go if the company decides it doesn't want to bother with you anymore.

[Saana]

Related: Odo Korachi confirmed in local that Heth is now wanted by CONCORD (on behalf of the State).