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Author Topic: Pirate factions in FW  (Read 6848 times)

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #30 on: 24 May 2013, 12:59 »

edit: As an addendum to that, not even international, well financed terrorist groups are stupid enough to plant their flags in other people's shit. It's just a non-starter.

International Terrorist groups don't have sovereignty over entire regions of space with associated planets, space stations, and their own navies.

These are smaller than the 4 Empires, but doesn't mean they aren't constantly pushing in on the borders and fighting for control.




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Natalcya Katla

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #31 on: 24 May 2013, 19:29 »

Faction Warfare has never made any sense except as a gladiator sport anyway. That's how it should have been implemented in the first place, and although retconning it isn't really an option, any further delving into gladiator battles as a mechanism ought to be presented IC as what it is - bloodsport. That can still happen on behalf of and with sponsorship from any of the NPC factions. We don't need any more "wars" that are rigged to be unwinnable.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #32 on: 25 May 2013, 03:19 »

I thought the whole point of the CEWMPA wars WAS that they were meant to be eternal  and unwinnable.

To give the Militia somewhere socially acceptable to go serve their faction and reduce tension in the wider cluster?
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #33 on: 25 May 2013, 07:30 »

I thought the whole point of the CEWMPA wars WAS that they were meant to be eternal and unwinnable.
An eternal and unwinnable war, while an amusing literary concept, is not a productive thing for Empires to wage, nor a fun thing for players to experience.

To give the Militia somewhere socially acceptable to go serve their faction and reduce tension in the wider cluster?
The CEWPA doesn't exist because of the militias, the militias exist because of CEWPA.
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Shiori

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #34 on: 25 May 2013, 07:56 »

A war which ends has the distinct downside that late-coming players will not be able to experience it at all.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #35 on: 25 May 2013, 14:32 »

I thought the whole point of the CEWMPA wars WAS that they were meant to be eternal and unwinnable.
An eternal and unwinnable war, while an amusing literary concept, is not a productive thing for Empires to wage, nor a fun thing for players to experience.

That depends. Since World War II the great powers on our own world have been fighting proxy wars and eternal, unwinnable, wars against drugs, poverty, terrorism as an alternative to self-destruction.

To give the Militia somewhere socially acceptable to go serve their faction and reduce tension in the wider cluster?
The CEWPA doesn't exist because of the militias, the militias exist because of CEWPA.

Ah, but the loyalist pilots that make up the militia? The ones who would, otherwise, be little more than highsec pirates? The militias exist to control them.
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Makkal

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #36 on: 25 May 2013, 14:37 »

That depends. Since World War II the great powers on our own world have been fighting proxy wars and eternal, unwinnable, wars against drugs, poverty, terrorism as an alternative to self-destruction.

I'm not sure what you're doing sticking the war on poverty in there.
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Creep

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #37 on: 25 May 2013, 15:51 »

That depends. Since World War II the great powers on our own world have been fighting proxy wars and eternal, unwinnable, wars against drugs, poverty, terrorism as an alternative to self-destruction.

I'm not sure what you're doing sticking the war on poverty in there.
Yeah, we surrendered to Poverty a LONG time ago.
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Shiori

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #38 on: 25 May 2013, 16:11 »

There's no money in a war on poverty.
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Ghost Hunter

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #39 on: 25 May 2013, 17:59 »

Because as a Serpentis Loyalist i would like to support Serpentis, not the Caldari State. Sure you can argue helping the Caldari State indirectly helps Serpentis by disrupting Federation efforts but so does regular piracy and strip mining belts in high sec.

The difference is that including the pirate factions in FW makes FW more interesting, allows pirate factions to profile themselves as more then belt fodder and gives us pirate faction supporters a way to get those lovely loyalty points by shooting players instead of npcs. (fffuccckk shooting npcs)

Obviously a system designed specifically for pirate factions would be preferred, the problem however kicks in with the fact that existing pirate faction content is hard to reach and thus not used a lot. Since not many players use it CCP is not going to dedicate any development time to it. Just look at all the various bugs they've ignored for years.

By including pirate factions in FW in a limited fashion, for example by not allowing them to capture systems but by only setting the pirate militias up with wardecs against the empire militias you expand on pirate faction related content with little to no effort on the part of the developers and you make pirate factions more accessible to the general eve population, which means it might eventually reach a point where CCP would be willing to spend development time on it.

As for motivation, most of the pirate factions have simple reasons to get involved;

Serpentis for example wastes billions a day on patrolling every belt in and around Federation space. Possibly trillions if you take into account the loss of crew life (and thus training) not to mention the complexes and bases they have to rebuild every single day. Apart from massive grudge Serpentis holds against the Federation they need to think about business; this business if hampered by both Federation forces and Capsuleers in general. If handing out some loyalty points to get more capsuleers blowing each other up and in the processes creating more chaos along the Federation border then thats pretty much win-win for them.

Sanshas invasion of highsec is a giant failure, all thanks to capsuleers. Its safe to assume they'd be quite happy enlisting capsuleers to shoot other capsuleers, the more time they spent shooting each other the less they spent shooting Sansha forces.

All of the pirate factions have one or more reasons for wanting to destabilize low security space.

I do not think Pirate Factions involving themselves in the current FW system makes them more interesting. If anything, it can turn off the consumer base because every other NPC faction is now involved in the endless grind that composes FW existence. What LP would the Pirate supporters get? Empire LP or Pirate LP? Pirate LP would have to be fundamentally rebalanced because their LP store is entirely different than Empire ones. To introduce a new source of LP without changing it would rock the markets and game balance.

Existing Pirate content (what little there is) is hard to reach, yes. This is a symptom of a greater problem in which CCP doesn't respect the Pirate life style. We would have to split our discussion off to address this in more detail.

You tie in the Pirates to the Empire militia system ... again, rebalancing of their LP store if that is your 'reward' for fighting for them. Development time would be spent on that rebalance, which has greater implications that simply eat time being verified for balance. Why upset the environment for a 'patch in' feature when you could set a block of time for a proper feature? If your reward is access to the Empire militia stores, this issue is invalid.

Your reasoning for the Serpentis can work, although the specifics I don't agree with. It can be good business for them to enlist Capsuleers to destabilize an area. That would be the militia system for them; now what's the militia system for the other four?

'Sansha's invasion of highsec is a giant failure' ... is a rather generous means of looking at it. I will digress from the storyline reasonings, as we will most likely get caught up in too many divergent points.

For now, I am more interested in how you propose a meaningful balancing of the Pirate FW stores.
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BloodBird

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #40 on: 26 May 2013, 10:26 »

CCP doesn't respect the Pirate life style. We would have to split our discussion off to address this in more detail.

Please do. I would love to hear a detailed explanation for this claim.

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Creep

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #41 on: 26 May 2013, 13:03 »

CCP doesn't respect the Pirate life style. We would have to split our discussion off to address this in more detail.

Please do. I would love to hear a detailed explanation for this claim.
I disagree in that I think that CCP very much wants Piracy to be a vibrant part of EVE, and they advertise the shit out of it to bring in new players. CCP's vision for EVE definitely has a "...and you can be a fuckin' SPACE PIRATE!" vibe. CCP does not foster an attitude of 'Fuck Pirates lol'.

I agree in that piracy is almost exclusively emergent gameplay. If people stopped wanting to pretend to be eye-patch-wearing, yarr-screaming pirates, it would dry up and the PvP would move to Syndicate.
The only things that CCP has done to recognize piracy mechanic-wise is by punishing it (sec status, sentry-guns, etc). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be punishing it (I want my -10.0 status goddamn it), but there are no countering mechanics to reward/encourage it either.
When low-sec residents called out to CCP to fix Lowsec (in the hopes of making the smallgang/solo life sustainable without a highsec mission alt, and bring more people into lowsec), CCP made FactionWar. Which brought a lot of risk-averse large fleets in lowsec, a great deal of cloaky plexers, and, yes, some excellent small-medium gang groups. Then they took away 1/10's and 2/10's which had been sources for PVP for many pirates, and drove many solo pirates out of lowsec. This has led to non-FW lowsec to become sources of tumbleweed rather than Yarring, with most PVP in these areas occurring in systems which neighbor hisec systems, and essentially nowhere else.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #42 on: 27 May 2013, 13:20 »

I disagree in that I think that CCP very much wants Piracy to be a vibrant part of EVE, and they advertise the shit out of it to bring in new players. CCP's vision for EVE definitely has a "...and you can be a fuckin' SPACE PIRATE!" vibe. CCP does not foster an attitude of 'Fuck Pirates lol'.

I agree in that piracy is almost exclusively emergent gameplay. If people stopped wanting to pretend to be eye-patch-wearing, yarr-screaming pirates, it would dry up and the PvP would move to Syndicate.
The only things that CCP has done to recognize piracy mechanic-wise is by punishing it (sec status, sentry-guns, etc). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be punishing it (I want my -10.0 status goddamn it), but there are no countering mechanics to reward/encourage it either.
When low-sec residents called out to CCP to fix Lowsec (in the hopes of making the smallgang/solo life sustainable without a highsec mission alt, and bring more people into lowsec), CCP made FactionWar. Which brought a lot of risk-averse large fleets in lowsec, a great deal of cloaky plexers, and, yes, some excellent small-medium gang groups. Then they took away 1/10's and 2/10's which had been sources for PVP for many pirates, and drove many solo pirates out of lowsec. This has led to non-FW lowsec to become sources of tumbleweed rather than Yarring, with most PVP in these areas occurring in systems which neighbor hisec systems, and essentially nowhere else.

Possibly the problem here is that people seem to be a tad confused about what a pirate actually is.

A pirate attacks others to make a living off what they can steal from their victims. A pirate seeks not to drive shipping away from their areas of operation, as who then can they prey on? Ransoms (that are honoured) should be meat & drink to any decent pirate operation.

Many EVE pirates seem, to me, to largely be maniacs that like a pretty flash when things blow up, and feel that scaring everyone else away from an area is something to be proud of.

However, back to the topic at hand.

Pirate factions being involved in FW does not have to mean pirate loyalists doing exactly the same things that core loyalists do. And I am puzzled as to why there seems to be a reluctance to see that. As I asked before. If this happens, how would you prefer it be done?
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Joshua Foiritain

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #43 on: 28 May 2013, 07:30 »

I do not think Pirate Factions involving themselves in the current FW system makes them more interesting. If anything, it can turn off the consumer base because every other NPC faction is now involved in the endless grind that composes FW existence.
Well pretty much everything in eve is endless because it has to be, this doesn't automatically mean its not interesting. It could be, but it doesn't have to be.

What LP would the Pirate supporters get? Empire LP or Pirate LP? Pirate LP would have to be fundamentally re-balanced because their LP store is entirely different than Empire ones. To introduce a new source of LP without changing it would rock the markets and game balance.
Obviously they'd get stuff from the pirate LP store, getting stuff from the empire LP store would be odd. As for re-balancing, CCP could apply a LP payout formula that works with the current LP store prices of pirate lp store items.

Of course, the pirate LP store only contains 19 actual items (bpcs, ships, pirate implants), the rest are either pirate ammo, which is inferior to empire ammo and barely used anyway and hardwirings which are identical to the empire stores so their costs could simply be copy pasted. So overall not that much work, its less work then developing a new feature and would have to be done anyway if CCP were to add a new feature for pirate factions.

Existing Pirate content (what little there is) is hard to reach, yes. This is a symptom of a greater problem in which CCP doesn't respect the Pirate life style. We would have to split our discussion off to address this in more detail.

You tie in the Pirates to the Empire militia system ... again, rebalancing of their LP store if that is your 'reward' for fighting for them. Development time would be spent on that rebalance, which has greater implications that simply eat time being verified for balance. Why upset the environment for a 'patch in' feature when you could set a block of time for a proper feature? If your reward is access to the Empire militia stores, this issue is invalid.
Because there will never a block of time for a valid feature. CCP has to assign their development time to parts of the game their customers use and/or can use. If i look at curse there's maybe ~100 ish people running missions for pirate factions. This is in a region with lots of stations and lots of agents, the numbers for other smaller regions like fountain or venal are most likely lower due to it being easier to camp the hand full of useful agents in those regions.

Lets go nuts and say there's 2500 players doing pirate faction missions in eve, eve has like 400.000 subscribers these days, that means 0.625% of the eve player is doing this. CCP is not going to spend 6 months and an expansion to create new system which only a tiny fraction of the player base has access to.

Of course they could add a sec-for-tags like mechanics to open up this new feature for the rest of the player base but this is a fairly sizeable feature on its own, requiring even more development time while theres 20 to 40 features that large chunks of the player base use that need iteration/fixing.

So, wait another 8 years and hope at some point CCP finds time to work on an interesting feature or shoehorn pirate factions into existing features so theres actually some new content on that side of eve and hope that eventually enough players use it that their share of the player base becomes big enough to worth investing development time into?

Your reasoning for the Serpentis can work, although the specifics I don't agree with. It can be good business for them to enlist Capsuleers to destabilize an area. That would be the militia system for them; now what's the militia system for the other four?

'Sansha's invasion of highsec is a giant failure' ... is a rather generous means of looking at it. I will digress from the storyline reasonings, as we will most likely get caught up in too many divergent points.
From a storyline point of view Sansha made big claims in that expansion trailer and the end result is that every wormhole he opens to high sec results in the sansha fleet getting curb-stomped for a week and then retreating home to try again somewhere else. That strikes me as a failed/failing invasion and given the resources Sansha loses with every one i dont think its wrong to call it a giant one.

Of course in gameplay land incursions are pre-rigged for capsuleers to win (and even if they dont win theres no penalty.) Incursions would have been far more interesting if they started out in a single constellation and if players didn't complete that incursion before a certain time limit it would spread to adjacent constellations.

The constellation they now lost would have permanent penalties (nothing too big to prevent the high sec dwellers from quitting eve, think a 10% penalty on ship resistances, 5% higher market taxes, 10% lower bounties, etc) though the actual incursion would end until players push back the new incursions and then re-conquer the lost constellation.

Rather then being a constellation sized farm fest incursions would actually look like they're trying to achieve something with borders being pushed back and forth; if players spend too much time farming and not enough time actually closing incursions the rate at which it spreads increases exponentially with every new system it conquers.

The catch behind the system is that the timers adjust based on how quickly players can close incursions so that closing the original incursion is almost impossible but also prevents all of empire space from being run over. Now you've got the endless gameplay feature that the game needs but also makes it more interesting then just being a plot of farm land that grows isk.

Of course CCP is hesitant to shake up high sec since a large portion of the player base lives there and expects to be able to live in peace.


Anyhow, this was not really the topic of discussion to sum up my point: Ideally id like to see CCP add a FW like system for pirate factions based either on pirate factions in general or tailored towards the individual pirate factions.

For this to happen two things need to happen:
1: The percentage of the player base using pirate faction content (currently this is only missions) needs to increase by a lot for it to become worth spending development time on this.
2: In order for 1 to happen there needs to be more people can do with/for pirate factions then run missions.

So; adding pirate factions into FW in a limited capacity (just shooting, no system capturing) would be an easy way to expand gameplay on the pirate faction side of eve. It would require relatively little development time and open up this side of eve to a large portion of the players.

Once people are actually using it CCP will be able to justify development time into reworking the pirate faction FW into something more unique or replacing it with a different system.

Which leaves a choice: Make due with a feature thats not perfect and hope it will pave the way for iteration or wait another 8 years for something to happen?
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Merdaneth

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Re: Pirate factions in FW
« Reply #44 on: 29 May 2013, 13:22 »

I have no reason why pirate factions would participate in FW.

If you join a pirate faction: bam, sec status set to -10.0, and you can freely fire at anyone in Empire. In fact, might as well give bounties to Empire NPC vessels.

Conversely, if you are in pirate space, you won't get shot at by NPCs and you get assistance from gate-guns if shot by non-pirate faction pilots.

Why would you want pirate factions to join FW?

1. Get easy access to pirate LP stores?
2. Get lots of people to join pirate factions just for pewpew or isk?
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