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[Svetlana Scarlet]

Well, considering SuVee stance on most things, I suspect their goal would simply be to extract the most value for the least amount of work (and possible trouble). An armed occupation would be expensive and counterproductive, the same with trying to run some sort of Cultural Revolution reeducation craziness.

[Aria Jenneth]

Ahh rgr, yeah back when I first started I had a little talk with Boma about all that. He was pretty bitter OOC about the whole thing it seemed. Kinda seemed to me like he pushed it a little to hard and maybe that informed where I was headed.
I totally tried to buy his last corpse of whoever had it, was going to make a little ancestor shrine for him and say Souch read his opinions in college. Sadly whoever it was that had it would not sell. They might not have realized just how much I would pay but such is life lol.

Le sigh. Yeah, that sounds about right; he and I went round and round about it OOC a couple of times, and he did get a little bitter that nobody much took up his cause. We developed a bit of quasi-canon around it where he was a descendant of a mostly-vanished family/sect of nationalist Achura who left rather than bear the shame of living under, as he perceived it, a conquering power. Sadly, that seems really difficult with this new bit of PF-- they probably couldn't have hopped a ship if they'd wanted to, not least because the uplift apparently occurred while the Achura were a pre-industrial society and the Caldari were still nominally part of the Federation and building their colonies in secrecy.

"Let's see ... do we let the embittered family of pre-industrial Achur Empire loyalists get offworld to go tell the Federation about our little civics project, here? Noooooooo, don't think so."

Ironically, the very thing that would have most justified his personal timeline also snipped it.

What I meant with the "benevolent overlord" comment was just that the more liberal and open their policy towards the Achur, the more likely discontents would have an opportunity to propagate their beliefs without getting hell stomped.

Agreed-- though the Elder Visionaries may have been a bit sharply pointed about this themselves.

"Are you kidding? Have you even seen the cities? Do you, at all, understand what these people could do to us? To our families? To our community? You're confined to the grounds until you learn some sense, you young hothead, and don't push me unless you want a lesson in some of the harsher parts of our history. This monastery has no need for firebrands."

This, however, would pose no problem at all for your character, and I'm sure there are some simmering resentments bubbling along in this heart or that one. I just don't expect that the Achura have their own organized version of the Templis Dragonaurs waiting in the wings.

[Utsukushi Shi]

That is a pretty interesting point about the possibility of Achur on Achur repression (get your minds out of the gutter). It is very possible the earliest decision makers made it clear that walking the middle path would benefit them much more than any doomed rebellions.

[Aria Jenneth]

Well, considering SuVee stance on most things, I suspect their goal would simply be to extract the most value for the least amount of work (and possible trouble). An armed occupation would be expensive and counterproductive, the same with trying to run some sort of Cultural Revolution reeducation craziness.

Hee. Funnily enough, Svetlana, I actually think SuVee was kind of easy-going on the ruthless pragmatism here-- almost even *gasp* principled.

Thing is, they apparently DID do some sort of Cultural Revolution reeducation craziness-- in the urban areas, to the (if I'm reading it right) "vast majority" of the ethnic Achura. (Or maybe the city population has just grown way-fast since, what with abruptly super-modernized medical tech or whatever-- at any rate, it seems most modern Achura live in the cities as full-fledged Caldari.) It was a full-scale uplift.

They just didn't touch the rural bits, much, unless a monastery happened to be sitting on a particularly nifty ore deposit. They probably could have just swallowed Achur civilization whole with not too much more effort, and gotten easier access to the rest of those tasty planetary resources into the bargain ... but they left the vast majority of the planet as a sort of reservation, as far as I can tell. Those who were uplifted apparently have a sentimental attachment to SuVee-- they tend to look there first for both work and purchasing opportunities. This doesn't bespeak a particularly vicious taskmaster, though admittedly there might be some indoctrination at play.

Vikarion said that he saw the Achura as the Caldari "pet the dog" moment, a humanizing touch. Well, maybe they still are-- for SuVee, of all entities, even. SuVee even seems to enjoy having such interesting neighbors, and employs their art in its advertising campaigns and corporate literature.

When you meet an impoverished but clever cousin with rich land, you might take a certain amount of advantage, possibly quite extensive ... but it takes a pretty cold heart to just destroy the poor guy.

After all, he's still family.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

(Or maybe the city population has just grown way-fast since, what with abruptly super-modernized medical tech or whatever-- at any rate, it seems most modern Achura live in the cities as full-fledged Caldari.)

This seems likely, to me, considering we're talking about a society that was completely pre-industrial - Only a tiny percentage likely lived in the cities. Actually, since they probably take up a comparatively very small amount of the planets actual geography, it wouldn't surprise me if culturally Achur Achur still sort of think of the urban areas as fairly isolated pockets of harmless foreign influence in a world that is still, largely, theirs - Despite the fact that they've grown to the point that they outnumber them.

[kul Shaishi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

[Aria Jenneth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

... Okay, admittedly, the actual, RL Cultural Revolution didn't work out so well. It seems like a total-cultural-conversion uplift would have a fair few of the same aims without ... y'know ... famine. Regardless, the Caldari uplift apparently worked.

(Or maybe the city population has just grown way-fast since, what with abruptly super-modernized medical tech or whatever-- at any rate, it seems most modern Achura live in the cities as full-fledged Caldari.)

This seems likely, to me, considering we're talking about a society that was completely pre-industrial - Only a tiny percentage likely lived in the cities. Actually, since they probably take up a comparatively very small amount of the planets actual geography, it wouldn't surprise me if culturally Achur Achur still sort of think of the urban areas as fairly isolated pockets of harmless foreign influence in a world that is still, largely, theirs - Despite the fact that they've grown to the point that they outnumber them.

Hrrrrrm.

Perhaps for some, for a while?

The center of Achur civilization pre-Caldari apparently was not the monasteries, so I'm pretty sure they noticed that all of a sudden the government was full of weird space ghost people running everything. Once everyone concerned worked out who was running things on behalf of the rural Achura, some of the more isolated ones might have kinda gone "meh" about the whole phenomenon ...

... but I'm not sure I see that outliving, say, half a century. The Achura are pretty curious, observant, and pragmatic, so I suspect somebody somewhere got a hold of, say, some urban census report and went "ZOMG." Even if not, take it from a DUST player: Caldari planetary structures are not subtle and they're not small.

There's a certain five-objective map that has a Caldari version and a Gallente version. The Gallente version is pretty low-key, and consequently tends to involve a lot of plinking from long range: the facility's in a low-lying area and you can snipe right over it. The Caldari version of the apparently self-same facility? Um. It's taller by five to twenty times, depending on which bit. You can forget sniping over it unless you can get up on top. Most of its lowest buildings are about as tall as the tallest buildings of the Gallente facility, and its tallest are towers with peaks roughly level with a dropship's flight ceiling.

That's a pretty consistent pattern for Caldari architecture throughout DUST.

If the Caldari set up a city on your doorstep, you'd notice. If your own dwelling was a wood or earthen hut, you'd notice a whole lot.

(Also, come to think of it, Achura who wash out of Caldari society on the Achur homeworld are probably some of the luckiest nonentities anywhere in the State. When told to get out, they likely have someplace to get out -to-. Such travelers are likely to carry all kinds of news.)

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Ahh, I think you took my meaning slightly wrong, there. I didn't mean to imply that they would be oblivious of the cities presence or size. That would be a little absurd. Merely that their mentality might be that they consider them the exception, rather then the rule, on the planet. They think they - meaning the cities - are the isolated and small communities cut off from greater Achura society with the bizzare and unconventional foreign culture, rather then the other way around.

For example, one somewhat more xenophobic then normal Achur might say, "We have to stop these awful Caldari from taking over our planet and destroying our way of life!", to which others would probably give him a funny look and reply that barely even rule over a single percent of the actual planets surface, and that it is still very much theirs.

They wouldn't really think about the massively growing population figures. And why would they? Their actual relationship with the urban SuVee ruled areas has probably changed very little in the past 200 years.

[Aria Jenneth]

Ahh, I think you took my meaning slightly wrong, there. I didn't mean to imply that they would be oblivious of the cities presence or size. That would be a little absurd. Merely that their mentality might be that they consider them the exception, rather then the rule, on the planet. They think they - meaning the cities - are the isolated and small communities cut off from greater Achura society with the bizzare and unconventional foreign culture, rather then the other way around.

For example, one somewhat more xenophobic then normal Achur might say, "We have to stop these awful Caldari from taking over our planet and destroying our way of life!", to which others would probably give him a funny look and reply that barely even rule over a single percent of the actual planets surface, and that it is still very much theirs.

They wouldn't really think about the massively growing population figures. And why would they? Their actual relationship with the urban SuVee ruled areas has probably changed very little in the past 200 years.

Point.

I'm sort of imagining if the Combine (Half Life 2), minus head crabs and other fun extradimensional beasties (interplanetary invasive species bad, m'kay?) had set up its citadels and sort of eaten City 17 and pretty much every other major metropolitan area, but then kept to itself and opened a bunch of trading posts.

Only Earth at the time is China in about 1600 CE.

Fun times?

[Utsukushi Shi]

I would just point out that all the PF says is pre-industrial. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation as to what exactly that means. Not sure that it is as easy as pre-industrial = barely any cities. Say the bulk of Achur lived in city-states with some sort of communal fields being worked outside of the walls. In that scenario replacing the cities specifically could have quite an effect.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I would just point out that all the PF says is pre-industrial. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation as to what exactly that means. Not sure that it is as easy as pre-industrial = barely any cities. Say the bulk of Achur lived in city-states with some sort of communal fields being worked outside of the walls. In that scenario replacing the cities specifically could have quite an effect.

It's worth noting that Elizabethan London was pre-industrial, as was Imperial Rome. Both of those had hundreds of thousands, possibly even a million people in the case of Rome. On the other hand, they had a much smaller urban/rural population ratio simply because of the higher number of people needed to handle agricultural tasks to feed those cities.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Yeah, I was going to say.

Pre-industrial socities always require a far greater rural population, no matter how big the urban areas become - This is pretty much a universal constant in history. Without factories and industry, towns and cities are inherently places where goods are only traded and consumed, never actually produced. There's simply neither enough food nor actual work to sustain a majority population.

[Aria Jenneth]

Svetlana:

Assuming that we've got the right of all this stuff, I would like your opinion on whether the Caldari would have any, dare I say, pet name for traditional Achura-- any specific title. It seems like, if it exists, it's probably little-known outside of Saisio III itself (the Achura being, capsuleer and related activities aside, notoriously isolationist), so it would be entirely probable that any Achur capsuleers reverting to their origins would need to propagate this bit o' local lingo themselves-- IF, as I say, it exists.

I'd like your own current thoughts on whether there would be one and, if so, what it might be.

This is, I'm coming to realize, a kinda controversial thing I'm asking about/for-- a direct modification to an existing and relatively well-established bit of Caldari (not Achura) quasi-canon. I've always studied the Caldari State with very much an eye to the Achur perspective, and this isn't that; there may be a touch of wish-fulfillment in my approach. The same may arguably be said of Gwen, or any other Achur player-- after all, this is something the Caldari would have come up with for the Achura, and not, probably, with their permission.

Care to share your thoughts?

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I do not think the Caldari would have any title for the Achura; as far as they are considered the Achura are State citizens, under Sukuuvestaa's sovereign umbrella. The nature of citizenship in the State is somewhat undefined at the moment as well; obviously corporate citizens are covered under the Caldari, but that does not answer the question of the ranks of the dispossessed. Presumably they still have some inherent rights (they cannot be enslaved, for instance, or murdered -- though presumably law enforcement in the shantytowns is scant or simply the work of gangs), but they don't have the same rights as a corporate citizen.

If the Achura are a "client state" (even though I think this is highly unlikely, at least in any sort of formal arrangement -- SuVee owns Saisio lock, stock, and barrel if you ask me), they likely fall in this grey area, though obviously an Achura monastery or village is considerably better off than a shantytown made from the refuse of the cities. I also think it's highly unlikely the Achura live like the Pennsylvania Dutch; they may prefer small agricultural villages, but if they prize invention and engineering as a spiritual pursuit, I can't imagine them eschewing technology. Their homeworld is probably just as advanced as any Caldari world, though likely pushed mostly to agriculture and low population density (outside the main cities).

While the SuVee personnel on Achura may have a colloquialism for the rural Achura (like we might call someone a hick or a country bumpkin), I find it highly unlikely this would be formalized. An Achura would get the same honorific as any other Caldari. I don't see anything in the Achura background that makes it sound like they resisted the arrival of SuVee and their amalgamation into the State; as long as the Achura worked with the corporate system, even if they kept their own traditions, I can't see them trying to stomp that out, especially since they consider the Achura traditions (and values) to be so close to their own. There would be no reason to stigmatize the Achura as outsiders; what does it gain the other Caldari?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Presumably they still have some inherent rights (they cannot be enslaved, for instance, or murdered -- though presumably law enforcement in the shantytowns is scant or simply the work of gangs), but they don't have the same rights as a corporate citizen.

EVElopedia states quite the opposite.

Non-entity

The meritocratic and ultracompetitive nature of the State means there are just as many winners as there are losers. The non-entity caste are the disenfranchised individuals of the State, having lost absolutely everything (including their citizenship) due to their failure to keep up with what many call a social form of natural selection[9]. The State has the largest ratio of its population considered impoverished, although authorities do not account for these groups in census reports. As social inequality and poverty is morally justified according to Caldari meritocracy, the wider State is not held back by having to concern itself with taking care of what society dub as failures and effectively non-Caldari. Many are expected to undertake a form of ritual suicide rather than live in the shame and dishonor of being non-entity.

Non-entities inhabit fringe communities outside of corporate-controlled territory within Caldari space. As rural areas on planets tend to be void of any corporate presence outside of automated facilities, non-entity communities can be found here. The Guristas frequently use these locations as a staging area for organized crime or military operations against the State. In other cases, entire worlds are inhabited by these non-entities. Because Caldari authorities do not consider non-entities to have any rights or protections, they will displace or otherwise eradicate communities deemed to be a threat to the order. Some of the Practical-leaning corporations may employ non-entities on a very minute wage in industries that are illegal or otherwise questionable.

Many critics of the State feel that the treatment of the non-entity caste is not justified at all. It is very common in the State for citizens to give it their all and fail nonetheless, or are punished by a scaled grading system as a result of the outstanding performance of just a few exceptional individuals. In addition, trends show that firstborn children are far less likely to fail than their siblings, while individuals born with physical or mental debilitations are traditionally abandoned in non-entity communities. Various structural inequalities may also prevent advancement and off-handedly result in forcing citizens off of the bottom rung. Though there are always active efforts to eradicate institutional corruption, the Caldari State has the issues of any interstellar empire in trying to ensure all of its territories abide by its core principles, meaning this battle is a continuous one.