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[Gwen Ikiryo]

It's also worth noting that the Caldari do not consider cultural diversity a value -- conformity is the norm. At least some reason for the acceptance of the Achura as members of the State was because they were considered to be culturally very similar to the Caldari.

Personally, I suspect any such agreement as to the unique state of the Achura is due to an agreement with Sukuuvestaa only, and that the Caldari as a whole recognize Achura on Saisio III as Sukuuvestaa citizens (therefore addressing them in the same way as they would any Caldari), but that Sukuuvestaa may have some agreement with Achura leaders that grants them special privileges in return for allowing Sukuuvestaa significant control over much of the planet for their own purposes. In other words, Sukuuvestaa is considered to "own" Achura, but in order to not piss off the Achura population, it grants them significant latitude to conduct their own affairs. this could explain both the "client state" idea as well as fit it into the corporate sovereignty that defines Caldari government.

I can't check right now (Since the servers are dead) but I think it explictly says that "rural" Achura are not considered citizens/employees in any capacity. It makes it more sort of out to be a little political bubble with it's own laws, leaders, customs...

I'll be honest in that I don't really get the whole "Very similar culture" thing between the Achur and the State. The two seem like night and day. Where one values strength, pragmatism and loyalty to the whole, the other puts more stock in abstract qualities; Introspection, wisdom, etc.

As for the actual legal ownership of the planet outside of SuVee controlled zones, I have a feeling that would depend on whom one asks. I anticipate being effectively isolated from wider State society for centuries with very little apparant social change would make the populace more then then a little xenophobic.


On the word "Achura" itself - I can think of two possible ideas.

1: It's the name of the Empire that dominated the planet before the Caldari arrived that's already been discussed, and thus come to be associated with the entire ethnic group as a whole.

2: Since the Achura never had any reason to suspect people existed outside of their planet before the Caldari arrived (being pre-industrial and all) I wouldn't be surprised if it simply means "human". I mean, it doesn't seem paticularly likely that all the residents of a planet would refer to themselves by an all encompassing label other then that, even if they were united politically. More likely, they would refer to themselves by a regional or cultural identity.

The meaning, of course, would quickly become corrupted once SuVee arrived.

[Lithium Flower]

From my point of view, polite Caldari should still call this Achura "haan(i)", if this Achura is welcomed, even if this person is not "one of us" culturally, but hasn't done anything disrespectful.

That might be a polite thing to do, but I'm not sure it would be the norm. The Achura, being culturally Achura rather than an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari, is definitionally not "one of us" and is either at home (in which case, the Caldari is the outsider) or is visiting-- and, because the Achura is not culturally Caldari, is therefore out of place. Remember that the Caldari do not welcome even client peoples to come and live among them; clients are expected to keep to themselves.

An Achur who is not presently doing so may be tolerated, but is not quite welcome.

"Ah, you are here for supplies, Cho-achurai? Excellent. Come have a look; I think you will be pleased-- and please stay for some refreshment before your journey home."

In this example, a Caldari (possibly even ethnic Achur) trader welcomes an Achur's business, but also recognizes (1) their difference in culture (through use of title) and (2) the expectation that the visitor will be returning a fair distance home once their business is concluded. This strikes me as a probably common exchange.

There is a complication: how one will distinguish "caldarianezed" from rural Achura? Accidentally calling State citizen "-achurai" might be considered as an obvious insult.

Well, Achur who is Achur by choice might prefer to be called with honorific, that other Achur use for each other. For example, if Ryeon-achur would prefer to be called this way, you will show respect by satisfying this request. But otherwise, I still think, that Caldari should call them still "haan(i)".
As for how one Achura should call another - I have no idea. "-achur" sounds for me a bit weird 

I think you might be giving the Caldari a little too much credit for caring about other people's feelings. Remember, the non-integrated Achura have legal rights within the State only because they have client status; otherwise, they'd be nonentities, people who don't exist under Caldari law. It seems likely to me that most Caldari, including many integrated Achura, feel that the protections the rural Achura receive are pretty much all they're entitled to-- they're a protected people, and possibly sort of like poor cousins (the Achur faith is apparently recognized by followers of the Way as a different way of looking at the same truths), but outsiders just the same. Embracing Achur titles would be incorporating an aspect of their culture into the Caldari's own, which, aside from SuVee advertising campaigns, the Caldari seem in no hurry to do.

As an aside, the Achura seem to call themselves the Achura (as opposed to the Saisiovians or the Saisians or something). Probably, even calling them "Achura," thus using the Achur name for their own world, is a gesture of respect.

I think it is not like about feeling, but about honor and showing respects. Since, well, I say again, that "-haan(i)" is used by citizens to adress citizens, but has meaning of "comrade", and doesn't imply that you are an official citizens, or just a visiting friend. From my point of view, it is honorific title, not legal. And the meaning would be a Caldari adressing others as "Mr./Ms."

And, I think, since we don't have Achuran language (yet), we could just let one Achura to address another with these "Mr./Ms." prefixes, saying that our handwavium translators are doing all the job.

[Hamish Grayson]

Your contempt for that which does not conform to your preexisting notions of what the Caldari are or should be does not change the PF, nor is it useful for interpreting it. Please excuse me if I do not take it very much into account.

This is first time something on these boards has made me genuinely angry.    Of all the participants of backstage Svetlana is probably one of the least likely to let 'pre-existing notions' color her perception of PF.    She is known looking at things from all angles and make careful and articulated points.    I feel that if someone as gifted as yourself were to re-read and reflect on the things Svetlana has contributed over the years that you'd see that.

Now, It seems to me that a few of you want a schism between the Achurians and the Civire and Deties and that's fine. There is room for it.   Also I think there has been a small, but steadfast group of people who are interested in such things for many years now and that merits a bone or two from CCP to support them.     In addition, Napanii is only quasi-cannon and thus in my opinion open to the whims of the greater RP community.     

However, just because a few Achurian farm boys don't feel they fit in with the State doesn't mean the Civire and Deties are going to change their language to accomodate them.    Why make the concession for someone determined to be an outsider especially when the purity of the language is of such dire importance to them?     It's a ceremonial language not the common every day language and by adressing someone as with the -haan suffix you are ceremoniously acknowledging them as upstanding members of the State and an adherent to the Caldari culture.

I think what most haan would do in a situation were they are speaking to an Achurian who is in good standing with the State, obey's it laws, does not go out of their way to make a disruption but does not wish to be included as part of the Caldari would be to adress them by their official title.  I believe they would be exceptionally formal, polite  and subtle in their exclusion.  I.E.   'Good evening CEO Jenneth,'  'Have a pleasant trip Captian Jenneth.'

[orange]

What Hamish said. 

[Aria Jenneth]

Your contempt for that which does not conform to your preexisting notions of what the Caldari are or should be does not change the PF, nor is it useful for interpreting it. Please excuse me if I do not take it very much into account.

This is first time something on these boards has made me genuinely angry.    Of all the participants of backstage Svetlana is probably one of the least likely to let 'pre-existing notions' color her perception of PF.    She is known looking at things from all angles and make careful and articulated points.    I feel that you if someone as gifted as yourself were to re-read and reflect on the things Svetlana has contributed over the years that you'd see that.

Hamish, let me be plain: I sympathize with Svetlana's frustration with a PF that's frankly near kaleidoscopic, and have for many years. I never liked Tibus Heth. I never liked the centralized, nigh-unchallengeable power, the dubious credentials, the multiple glaring exceptions to the normal Caldari approach to doing things. Perhaps something like him was necessary. Perhaps Hellgremlin is correct, and he was always going to be there, an unambiguous monster, a slightly toned-down Space Hitler that poor Tony G had to try and breathe life into.

Perhaps, as I tend to think, Tony G brought more of his own moral outlook into his writing than was appropriate, painting New Eden in broad strokes of melodrama, strokes that are only now beginning to fade.

Svetlana, from what I have seen, has continued to rail against these changes, becoming a quintessential bittervet on matters Caldari. In her own words:

I've read the rest of the topic...I think it's bullshit.  It certainly isn't unprecedented for me to think PF is bullshit.

This is an approach that you ask me to treat respectfully.

It is in the nature of bittervets to be long-time players with, often, strong backgrounds. It is also often in their nature to be at least partly right.

That does not make their insights useful, sadly, as long as they function in that capacity.

As a worldbuilder, I deal in what is and try to make the best of it. If something changes, I adjust and adapt. Presently, I am trying to adjust and adapt to a set of data that Svetlana, rightly or wrongly, regards as "bullshit."

Discussions of what the PF should be, as opposed to what it is, are neither interesting nor useful to me. I therefore stand by my remarks-- though I note that her subsequent contributions have been excellent.

Now, It seems to me that a few of you want a schism between the Achurians and the Civire and Deties and that's fine. There is room for it.   Also I think there has been a small, but steadfast group of people who are interested in such things for many years now and that merits a bone or two from CCP to support them.     In addition, Napanii is only quasi-cannon and thus in my opinion open to the whims of the greater RP community.

Of the former group, I count two. I am not one.

As far as the latter, I agree, but we can proactively make modifications.

However, just because a few Achurian farm boys don't feel they fit in with the State doesn't mean the Civire and Deties are going to change their language to accomodate them.    Why make the concession for someone determined to be an outsider especially when the purity of the language is of such dire importance to them?     It's a ceremonial language not the common every day language and by adressing someone as with the -haan suffix you are ceremoniously acknowledging them as upstanding members of the State and an adherent to the Caldari culture.

That's actually my opinion precisely.

I'm not arguing for a change-- I'm arguing that this is how things always were, but that we need to introduce a modification to reflect the new PF-- a word for a middle ground between -haan and -jaijji. The State has client communities within it; how does it recognize them?

I think what most haan would do in a situation were they are speaking to an Achurian who is in good standing with the State, obey's it laws, does not go out of their way to make a disruption but does not wish to be included as part of the Caldari would be to adress them by their official title.  I believe they would be exceptionally formal, polite  and subtle in their exclusion.  I.E.   'Good evening CEO Jenneth,'  'Have a pleasant trip Captian Jenneth.'

Could be.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I will note that at least according to the bloodline description on Evelopedia (which I can now read) there is no hint whatsoever that the Achura are not considered equal to the Civire or Deteis, nor that they have any sort of Mennonite-like separation from the State.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I will note that at least according to the bloodline description on Evelopedia (which I can now read) there is no hint whatsoever that the Achura are not considered equal to the Civire or Deteis, nor that they have any sort of Mennonite-like separation from the State.

I don't think anyone is citing stuff from the bloodline descriptions, here - Just the demographics article.

I think I might as well just quote the whole part in question.

The Achura are a client state of the Caldari. The vast majority of Achura can be found on their homeworld as corporate subjects of the Sukuuvestaa corporation. While there is an autonomous Achura government known as the Elder Visionaries, they mostly control the monasteries in the rural areas of the homeworld. The Elder Visionaries are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be whilst still participating in cluster affairs, primarily in the areas of interstellar religion.

The Achura only become recognized and known to the rest of the cluster during the capsuleer era. Drawn to the philosophical implications of the hydrostatic capsule, many would seek to become pod pilots in large numbers. As the capsuleer training process is ostensibly Caldari in the State, their Achura identities and culture would be removed and replaced by the Caldari way. Because the wider Caldari put more emphasis on cultural compliance over ethnic origin, these encultured Achura are considered full citizens in equal standing. However, the independence granted to capsuleers means that many Achura after graduation choose to revert back to their original culture.

Emphasis mine.

- Client state implies a very clear submissive but seperate relationship to the Caldari.
- "Autonomous Achura government" further reinforces this idea, as well as establishing the fact that they are not - at least directly - Subject to Caldari corporate governance.
- The part about culture implies that until they take on the "Caldari Way", they are not considered full citizens.

It seems pretty unambiguous.

[kul Shaishi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization
the achur are Chinese in culture so this applies to them 

[Aria Jenneth]

I will note that at least according to the bloodline description on Evelopedia (which I can now read) there is no hint whatsoever that the Achura are not considered equal to the Civire or Deteis, nor that they have any sort of Mennonite-like separation from the State.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. Please, if you have any actual information suggesting that the State Demographics page should be considered quasi-canon, please let us know. Our PF isn't the only one that got a bombshell in that article. Did you notice the bit on Caldari marital customs-- to wit, how the Deteis are still the Deteis and Civire are still the Civire despite lots and lots of time spent living on the same homeworld?

I won't say it doesn't make sense, but exactly how is matching people of similar appearance not racist when the concept of race is based almost exclusively on appearance?! Particularly when "halfbloods" face systemic discrimination, apparently on account of a social taboo against miscegenation-by-another-name?

If this is true, I'm not frankly sure that the canonically "mistaken" belief that the Caldari are racists is wrong. It's just ... sort of worked around and mostly evaded by the fact that their version of apartheid is based on culture.

See? Plenty for everybody. I can see how it derives from the PF, and reenforces it, and gives us all kinds of juicy data to play with, but it does make me raise an eyebrow a little in that "couldn't you have made the Caldari a bit harder to demonize?" sort of way.

The reason this is such an especially big deal for Achur PF (and one reason why my extrapolations have to be based on a "few lines") is that hardly any Achur PF exists. Most of what we "knew," we made up based on educated guesses much like the ones I'm making here.

Some of what we had (SuVee essentially raping the planet) has apparently been long-since retconned (thank God).

Some has merely been skeletonized (the Celestial Imperative).

Some has all of a sudden, courtesy of the Demographics article, sprung into three dimensions in ways we didn't expect (the independent, isolated nature of the monasteries).

... And, some was REALLY out of a clear blue sky (the implication that all, or almost all, Achur capsuleers are of the rural variety-- none of their available backgrounds-- monk, stargazer, even inventor-- correspond to any aspect of mainstream Caldari society, if only because the inventor's approach to invention is highly spiritual and not in a Way of the Winds sort of way. All, however, would be welcome in the surviving, isolated, introverted, deeply-spiritual Achur culture).

This information dump patches a number of holes (why the hell did we scarcely merit a mention before now, and why did it keep sounding like we were a somehow separate entity like the Ammatar Mandate? Answer: we're very few, very isolated, very introverted, and very surprisingly independent), but opens several cans of worms that are now squirming all over creation. I've been trying to stuff a few back in, and please note that I've come to the conclusion that the Achura see themselves as beneficiaries at least as much as victims.

After all, they were pre-industrial when SuVee moved in, the Caldari mostly respect their rights and leave them alone, and, from the sounds of some of their antiques, they might not feel very much nostalgia for the war-torn past.

So, detante?

I'm not trying to pry anything apart; I'm just trying to get an accurate read on what we've been handed, and while I think some of it is troublesome (see above), I also think it's the best trove of cultural PF we've gotten on this bloodline, or the Caldari generally, in ages.

[Aria Jenneth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization
the achur are Chinese in culture so this applies to them

Interestingly, kul Shaishi, I think this is a pretty good example of what is mostly NOT happening ...

... outside of SuVee's marketing department.

Adoption of other people's cultural practices seems to be pretty much anathema to the Caldari. They are themselves. Themselves they shall remain, damn it, and damned also be he who attempts to bend the Deteis and Civire to ways that are not their own!

... So, not so much with the absorbing Achur culture, compatible or not.

Likewise, it doesn't look very much like the rural Achura have been swallowing very much of the Caldari culture, being as they're scarcely immersed in it. They've lived under Caldari kinda-sorta rule for around three hundred years and show no particular sign of becoming Caldari, themselves (beyond the huge numbers of ethnic Achura who culturally integrated into Caldari society centuries ago and almost certainly remain ethnically distinct on account of Caldari marriage practices). Nor do the Caldari show any particular interest in making them.

The Achura keep mostly to the countryside, the Caldari (regardless of ethnicity) keep mostly to the cities, and everybody mostly lives in their own way and minds their own business. "What's good for you is good for you; what's good for me is good for me" seems to be the rule of the day-- unless SuVee is looking for a new way to make its products seem a little exotic (while still wholly compatible with Caldari culture).

Possibly SuVee's received a little pushback over the years from Templis-minded persons who would prefer to keep even superficial influences from other cultures out, out, out. Meantime, though, they seem to kind of like having a rich source of exotic (and Way-compatible!) cultural imagery to draw on.

Other than the apparently intense interest by the Achura (on a per-capita basis) in capsule training, resulting in many an Achur would-be capsuleer "turning Caldari," at least for a while, that marketing stratagem seems to be most of the cultural influencing that's going on.

[Lyn Farel]

If only the Ammatar Mandate was somehow a separate entity...

It's also worth noting that the Caldari do not consider cultural diversity a value -- conformity is the norm. At least some reason for the acceptance of the Achura as members of the State was because they were considered to be culturally very similar to the Caldari.

Personally, I suspect any such agreement as to the unique state of the Achura is due to an agreement with Sukuuvestaa only, and that the Caldari as a whole recognize Achura on Saisio III as Sukuuvestaa citizens (therefore addressing them in the same way as they would any Caldari), but that Sukuuvestaa may have some agreement with Achura leaders that grants them special privileges in return for allowing Sukuuvestaa significant control over much of the planet for their own purposes. In other words, Sukuuvestaa is considered to "own" Achura, but in order to not piss off the Achura population, it grants them significant latitude to conduct their own affairs. this could explain both the "client state" idea as well as fit it into the corporate sovereignty that defines Caldari government.

I can't check right now (Since the servers are dead) but I think it explictly says that "rural" Achura are not considered citizens/employees in any capacity. It makes it more sort of out to be a little political bubble with it's own laws, leaders, customs...

I'll be honest in that I don't really get the whole "Very similar culture" thing between the Achur and the State. The two seem like night and day. Where one values strength, pragmatism and loyalty to the whole, the other puts more stock in abstract qualities; Introspection, wisdom, etc.

As for the actual legal ownership of the planet outside of SuVee controlled zones, I have a feeling that would depend on whom one asks. I anticipate being effectively isolated from wider State society for centuries with very little apparant social change would make the populace more then then a little xenophobic.

Agreed.

Most of the "third" bloodlines that have been inserted by CCP in the game at some point - Achura, Khanid, Jin-Mei and Vherokior - have always been inserted more or less at different scales as the bad apples of their faction, the Vherokior excepted maybe (they are just... marginal at best). I mean, the Achura here, or the Jin-Mei values clashing with the ideals of the Federation, or even the Khanid with Khanid II vs the Empire...

[Aria Jenneth]

I anticipate being effectively isolated from wider State society for centuries with very little apparant social change would make the populace more then then a little xenophobic.

Hrm.

(Thanks, Lyn. I missed this.)

To a point, I agree-- many rural Achura are probably a bit twitchy about the very idea of outsiders dropping in for a visit. That said, it also seems like there's a good number of Achura travelling and living in the Federation, up to and including entire monasteries, so they can't be that nervous about outside contact.

It seems like Achur nervousness about outsiders would be balanced with Achur curiosity, which is a great tonic for xenophobia. It's harder to be ruled by fear when you badly want to learn.

I envision a random, say, Gallentean traveler (especially a teacher) in an Achur village as seeing hardly anyone on the way in, except for maybe knots of little gray, brown or black eyes peering from windows and doorways. After the traveler checks in at the local inn or whatever, and maybe has a pleasant (if somewhat probing) chat with the owner and a couple of the staff, this traveler notices a couple of the local residents talking to the innkeeper.

Within an hour and a half of this event, the traveler is absolutely surrounded by a throng of the local children, along with a fair few adults who were able to get away from their work, and is receiving an endless barrage of sometimes surprisingly well-thought-out questions.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Well, been some more interesting discussion here. As one of the "two people who want a schism" I guess I should chime in here a little. My fiction for Souch and his larger ethnic slice of Achur was created without any of the demographics articles. They had not even been published in fact. All I had to go on were the bloodlines and Suuvee descriptions. When I first read the lore it just seemed like the most likely scenario.

It is hard for me to imagine a situation wherein there would not be at least some Achur feeling resentment towards the Caldari, not all of them, not even some fledgling independence movement, just people who think they are dicks and want more control over their lives. I also choose to believe that while the Achur may well have many societal characteristics, they are not somehow massively different from other human beings. For instance despite the whole Monk/Shinto whatever going on they quite obviously fought wars at some point and were very brutal about it. The point being people hold grudges, they pass these grudges down to their children and in fact if the consensus I think we have reached here is accurate and the Caldari were benevolent overlords than it would be even easier for malcontents to inherit their father's arguments.

Ultimately the whole "Achur Independence" thing has nothing to do with Souch and while I don't want to speak for her, probably Gwen as well. His beliefs on the topic could best be described as complex lol. The IGS post that started this attracted my attention solely because I thought it would be nice to point out not every Achur is just some carbon-copy stoic, quiet, well-mannered good citizen or whatever. Amusingly I actually play Souchek to many of those stereotypes. He is polite, rarely engages in any discussion he thinks is improper and largely eschews social interaction with people not connected to his corporation. That specific day I decided he opened the post because it was obviously talking about his people and became disgusted with what he would percieve as "arrogant typical Civre/Deitei assumptions". So he said some bitter, hurtfull shit because he was angry basically. As a side note I have pretty specific reasons for why he thinks the way he does about the Achur/State relationship and they have little to do with the history of the State and much to do with events in his life. I just do not feel like explaining everything about him when instead I can save it for meaningfull IC interaction at a later date.

As for the whole linguistics thing. Not terribly much I can add either way. I get around all of that and my terrible memory by just saying Souch hates Napanii and every thing he has ever said in-game is in Amarr/Amarrian/Amarrad/whatever the hell they speak. I just use occasionally modified Japanese for Chukukaigan dialect Achur and go with the WH40k explanation that no one is talking in any of the languages we use anyway so all this is just substitution.

[Aria Jenneth]

Souchek:

For the record, the other was Boma Airaken (who I don't think is still around, but he might be).

Also for the record, I'm not sure the Caldari have been exactly benevolent so much as they've refrained from being malevolent, which really is about as much as you can ask when a foreign power that's literally from another planet is uplifting your major urban areas. My suspicion is that, while the Caldari wanted a solid local work force without a pile of cultural crossover and wanted to nip any ideas of revolt in the bud, they also saw something of themselves in the Achura (their faiths, according to the Caldari, are compatible, after all-- different ways of believing much the same thing), and they remembered what it was like when the Gallentean Cultural Deliverance Society arrived on Caldari Prime.

To wit, massive uplift with massive cultural interference and massive humiliation on the side-- at least as the Caldari remember it.

At a guess, they probably weren't, and aren't, that keen to repeat history by becoming what they so despised.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Ahh rgr, yeah back when I first started I had a little talk with Boma about all that. He was pretty bitter OOC about the whole thing it seemed. Kinda seemed to me like he pushed it a little to hard and maybe that informed where I was headed.
I totally tried to buy his last corpse of whoever had it, was going to make a little ancestor shrine for him and say Souch read his opinions in college. Sadly whoever it was that had it would not sell. They might not have realized just how much I would pay but such is life lol.

What I meant with the "benevolent overlord" comment was just that the more liberal and open their policy towards the Achur, the more likely discontents would have an opportunity to propagate their beliefs without getting hell stomped.