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[Svetlana Scarlet]

I will point out that the Caldari became racist nutballs about the same time they also became horrible slave masters who forced their entire population to work in misery factories. I treat both ideas with equal contempt, quite frankly. The Dragonaurs were wanted by both the Federation and the State prior to Heth's magical mystery tour.

I am not saying there is no bias against Achura in the State now (the Suvee article makes it clear that they are not really very common among the higher ranks of their organization), but I do not think it is institutionalized -- I think the problem is more than it has been harder for the Achura to work their way into the old boys' network rather than that they are enshrined as second-class citizens according to any sort of law. Especially since the concept of a "client state" makes no sense from everything else we've been told about the Caldari government.

[Aria Jenneth]

I will point out that the Caldari became racist nutballs about the same time they also became horrible slave masters who forced their entire population to work in misery factories. I treat both ideas with equal contempt, quite frankly. The Dragonaurs were wanted by both the Federation and the State prior to Heth's magical mystery tour.

I am not saying there is no bias against Achura in the State now (the Suvee article makes it clear that they are not really very common among the higher ranks of their organization), but I do not think it is institutionalized -- I think the problem is more than it has been harder for the Achura to work their way into the old boys' network rather than that they are enshrined as second-class citizens according to any sort of law. Especially since the concept of a "client state" makes no sense from everything else we've been told about the Caldari government.

On the contrary, client states make ample sense.

The Caldari are cultural conformists who strongly disapprove of foreigners who do not conform to their society. We knew this.

They are also friendly to the Achura. We knew this as well.

The Achura had/have their own society and culture. We knew this too.

Furthermore, the Achura have their own governing structure that is friendly with, but distinct from, the Caldari governing structure. This bit is about as old as the bloodline.

Upon reflection, that either screams "exception to the rule," which means the Achura are so close to the Caldari culture that the Caldari don't recognize them as being meaningfully distinct despite the several glaring differences (Achur spirituality, intellectualism, anti-materialism, separate government) ...

... or it screams "special relationship," with the Achura as sovereign clients of a larger power, a bit like Native American tribes are clients of the United States government.

It seems apparent to me which is more probable-- AND backed in the PF, Svetlana. This isn't Tony G stuff, here.

Your contempt for that which does not conform to your preexisting notions of what the Caldari are or should be does not change the PF, nor is it useful for interpreting it. Please excuse me if I do not take it very much into account.

[Lithium Flower]

All right: new issue.

The traditional Achura are a "client people" of the Caldari. We need a Napanni form of address for this, whether specific to the Achura or not; neither "-jaijji" nor "-haan" applies, since they're neither full citizens nor complete outsiders.

If it's specific to the client, I'd think that the client people's name or a derivative thereof is appropriate; "-achur" or "-intak" come to mind (bearing in mind that State-resident Intaki are also considered a client people if they do not wish to integrate), though we could vary these (-achura / -achuri / -achuro / achurwhatever; -inaki / -intaka / intaku, etc.).

Who's responsible for keeping the Napanni database, anyway?

Well, it shouldn't be Napanii in first place, but rather Achura language, that contains this "-achur" suffix. Because in Napanii this "-haan", that designates citizenship, means "comrade", like in USSR they would call you "Comrade Jenneth", Caldari would call you "Jenneth-haani". And I tend to use "-haan(i)" suffix for those, whom I believe know Napanii, where they are actual citizens or not, where for Amarr, for example, I prefer to use "Lord/Lady", and for minmatar/gallentean (and rarely for caldari/amarr) Mr./Ms.

(One time I thought about adressing peoples with "Comrade" prefix, but decided to better not, because it will creep peoples away  and mark me with something like "communist" rather than Caldari)

Usage, for example "Ryeon-achur" instead of "Ryeon-haani" I would find as discriminative from Caldari point of view, if you speak it in Napanii. On the other hand, if it is not Napanii, but Achuran language, you will show respect, by adressing character with her native language. (What does it mean in Achuran language, btw?  "people?")

[Aria Jenneth]

Well, it shouldn't be Napanii in first place, but rather Achura language, that contains this "-achur" suffix. Because in Napanii this "-haan", that designates citizenship, means "comrade", like in USSR they would call you "Comrade Jenneth", Caldari would call you "Jenneth-haani". And I tend to use "-haan(i)" suffix for those, whom I believe know Napanii, where they are actual citizens or not, where for Amarr, for example, I prefer to use "Lord/Lady", and for minmatar/gallentean (and rarely for caldari/amarr) Mr./Ms.

(One time I thought about adressing peoples with "Comrade" prefix, but decided to better not, because it will creep peoples away  and mark me with something like "communist" rather than Caldari)

Usage, for example "Ryeon-achur" instead of "Ryeon-haani" I would find as discriminative from Caldari point of view, if you speak it in Napanii. On the other hand, if it is not Napanii, but Achuran language, you will show respect, by adressing character with her native language. (What does it mean in Achuran language, btw?  "people?")

Hm. I did actually consider this, but it seems as though the word, "Achura," is itself Achur in origin, which might partly explain the blasted difficulty in working out proper usage (grrr). If you read the character creation background text, the only place the word "Achura" comes up is the bloodline name-- it's "Achur" as plural noun, singular noun, and adjective. When it's actually proper to use the word "Achura" boggles the hell out of me; I wing it.

Note that the Achura call their homeworld "Achura." The Caldari know it as Saisio III. So the "-achur" suffix would be Achur in origin; a non-adoptive Napanii equivalent might be "-saisi," after the system name.

Edit:

Also, I have no idea what "Achura" means to the Achura. "The people" would be typical, but the fact that the planet shares the name suggests that it's closer to "Earthling" or "Terran."

[Lyn Farel]

I will point out that the Caldari became racist nutballs about the same time they also became horrible slave masters who forced their entire population to work in misery factories. I treat both ideas with equal contempt, quite frankly. The Dragonaurs were wanted by both the Federation and the State prior to Heth's magical mystery tour.

I am not saying there is no bias against Achura in the State now (the Suvee article makes it clear that they are not really very common among the higher ranks of their organization), but I do not think it is institutionalized -- I think the problem is more than it has been harder for the Achura to work their way into the old boys' network rather than that they are enshrined as second-class citizens according to any sort of law. Especially since the concept of a "client state" makes no sense from everything else we've been told about the Caldari government.

I usually reason among the lines of "one cannot have one's cake and eat it". Every faction has its grimdark sides, and systematically denying them because they do not fit to the ideal they strive for...


Not saying that Heth was a good thing though. I am merely referring to their society, even pre Heth.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I have never said the Caldari don't have their dark side. I just don't think that happens to be it.

[Lithium Flower]

Well, it shouldn't be Napanii in first place, but rather Achura language, that contains this "-achur" suffix. Because in Napanii this "-haan", that designates citizenship, means "comrade", like in USSR they would call you "Comrade Jenneth", Caldari would call you "Jenneth-haani". And I tend to use "-haan(i)" suffix for those, whom I believe know Napanii, where they are actual citizens or not, where for Amarr, for example, I prefer to use "Lord/Lady", and for minmatar/gallentean (and rarely for caldari/amarr) Mr./Ms.

(One time I thought about adressing peoples with "Comrade" prefix, but decided to better not, because it will creep peoples away  and mark me with something like "communist" rather than Caldari)

Usage, for example "Ryeon-achur" instead of "Ryeon-haani" I would find as discriminative from Caldari point of view, if you speak it in Napanii. On the other hand, if it is not Napanii, but Achuran language, you will show respect, by adressing character with her native language. (What does it mean in Achuran language, btw?  "people?")

Hm. I did actually consider this, but it seems as though the word, "Achura," is itself Achur in origin, which might partly explain the blasted difficulty in working out proper usage (grrr). If you read the character creation background text, the only place the word "Achura" comes up is the bloodline name-- it's "Achur" as plural noun, singular noun, and adjective. When it's actually proper to use the word "Achura" boggles the hell out of me; I wing it.

Note that the Achura call their homeworld "Achura." The Caldari know it as Saisio III. So the "-achur" suffix would be Achur in origin; a non-adoptive Napanii equivalent might be "-saisi," after the system name.

Edit:

Also, I have no idea what "Achura" means to the Achura. "The people" would be typical, but the fact that the planet shares the name suggests that it's closer to "Earthling" or "Terran."

Well, I would find "Earthling Jenneth" creepy as hell 
Usual honorifics most of the time are versions of the word "master" and show your submission to authority or rank of the person you addressing. The variation of "comrade" is a way to show respect, while stating that all peoples are equal.
I think there should be another word for showing respect between Achura, than stating what planet they came from 

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Aria, do you know the exact wording from the bloodline about the separate Achura government? I certainly don't remember reading anything like that.

[kul Shaishi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicizat

[Aria Jenneth]

It's in the "Celestial Imperative" stuff in the Evelopedia, Svetlana. The Achur government is investigating raids on several monasteries, and doesn't trust the State to handle the investigation properly. CCP seems to have ripped out the storyline's intestines but left the skeleton. This is also the earliest canonical reference to the Elder Visionaries.

Edit:

There are also occasional references to Achur / Caldari relations being "a thing" as opposed to a non-issue, mostly surrounding the "white song." I believe there was at least one news article, a mission, and a reference in "Jita 4-4" that really threw me because it referred to munching (lunching, to be more exact) on a bird sacred to the Achura as the politically correct thing to do.

[Aria Jenneth]

Well, I would find "Earthling Jenneth" creepy as hell 
Usual honorifics most of the time are versions of the word "master" and show your submission to authority or rank of the person you addressing. The variation of "comrade" is a way to show respect, while stating that all peoples are equal.
I think there should be another word for showing respect between Achura, than stating what planet they came from 

Actually, this is a minor issue I have with Napanii as it currently exists. The Caldari aren't about egalitarianism in any form; they're about hierarchy, ideally meritocratic. Their "castes" may be somewhat loose, but they are definitely hierarchical.

But, let's say for the moment that the Caldari all refer to each other by the titles "-haan" or, in places, "-haani" for women, unless a person has gone and done something to earn a different title (-suuolo, -guri, -hnolku, etc.). That seems to be accepted practice, so let's accept it and go from there.

Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely, so "-haan" it is.

Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Achura a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely not. Such a person may be "equal" by some standard and has some legal status, but does not have the same privileges (cannot, for example, live in a Caldari community), cannot claim corporate citizenship under any corporation, and is certainly not "one of us."

That's not necessarily a very negative or, if it is, a very permanent judgment-- a cultural Achur is Achur by choice, and can choose to adopt Caldari ways and culture and become fully Caldari. Every single Achur capsuleer either started out culturally Caldari (rare) or has, at some point, done so. However, it's not a quality that grants equal status within the society; I'd compare it more to being a member of a protected species that can render itself fully human ("one of us") with appropriate effort.

That being the case, I'd say the use of a title denoting nation/planet of origin is practical and reasonable, considering that the Achura occupy a domain that is neither Caldari nor outsider nor non-entity. It's like calling the residents of the Intaki system Intaki or the people of Gallente Prime, Gallente.

[Lithium Flower]

Well, I would find "Earthling Jenneth" creepy as hell 
Usual honorifics most of the time are versions of the word "master" and show your submission to authority or rank of the person you addressing. The variation of "comrade" is a way to show respect, while stating that all peoples are equal.
I think there should be another word for showing respect between Achura, than stating what planet they came from 

Actually, this is a minor issue I have with Napanii as it currently exists. The Caldari aren't about egalitarianism in any form; they're about hierarchy, ideally meritocratic. Their "castes" may be somewhat loose, but they are definitely hierarchical.

But, let's say for the moment that the Caldari all refer to each other by the titles "-haan" or, in places, "-haani" for women, unless a person has gone and done something to earn a different title (-suuolo, -guri, -hnolku, etc.). That seems to be accepted practice, so let's accept it and go from there.

Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely, so "-haan" it is.

Well, how I imagine this "egalitarianistic" behavior of Caldari - as a result of mixing of Deteis and Civire cultures into one. And when you say "haan(i)", you mean, that you treat the person as your friend, as one of your own people, even if said person is not. A Civire is a haan(i) to Deteis, just like a Deteis is a haan(i) to Deteis. And Deteis is a haan(i) to Civire, just like Civire is a haan(i) to Civire.

So, when a Deteis says "haan(i)" to Achura or any other ethnicity, Deteis means, that this Achura is a comrade, and should be treated as other Deteis, "you are like me, you are one of us, and we will show you respect as one of us".

Same way, "-jaijii" would mean "you are not one of us, and don't expect respect here".

Is an ethnic Achur who is culturally Achura a full Caldari citizen? Absolutely not. Such a person may be "equal" by some standard and has some legal status, but does not have the same privileges (cannot, for example, live in a Caldari community), cannot claim corporate citizenship under any corporation, and is certainly not "one of us."

From my point of view, polite Caldari should still call this Achura "haan(i)", if this Achura is welcomed, even if this person is not "one of us" culturally, but hasn't done anything disrespectful.

That's not necessarily a very negative or, if it is, a very permanent judgment-- a cultural Achur is Achur by choice, and can choose to adopt Caldari ways and culture and become fully Caldari. Every single Achur capsuleer either started out culturally Caldari (rare) or has, at some point, done so. However, it's not a quality that grants equal status within the society; I'd compare it more to being a member of a protected species that can render itself fully human ("one of us") with appropriate effort.

Well, Achur who is Achur by choice might prefer to be called with honorific, that other Achur use for each other. For example, if Ryeon-achur would prefer to be called this way, you will show respect by satisfying this request. But otherwise, I still think, that Caldari should call them still "haan(i)".
As for how one Achura should call another - I have no idea. "-achur" sounds for me a bit weird 

That being the case, I'd say the use of a title denoting nation/planet of origin is practical and reasonable, considering that the Achura occupy a domain that is neither Caldari nor outsider nor non-entity. It's like calling the residents of the Intaki system Intaki or the people of Gallente Prime, Gallente.

Ugh. It sounds more like weird, creepy and disrespectful for me. Of course, we call Intaki those, who are from Intaki, Gallente, those who are from Gallente, say, like Americans who are from America, etc. As for me, it would be verrrryyy verrryyy creepy for me, if someone would use constantly "Earthling" as honorific while addressing to me. And for other countries, say, if american John Smith will visit United Kingdom and will be called "American Smith" instead of "Mr. Smith", I think it will be rather discriminative than respectful, because you will accent on Smith's difference from other peoples, telling him that he is not one of them.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

It's also worth noting that the Caldari do not consider cultural diversity a value -- conformity is the norm. At least some reason for the acceptance of the Achura as members of the State was because they were considered to be culturally very similar to the Caldari.

Personally, I suspect any such agreement as to the unique state of the Achura is due to an agreement with Sukuuvestaa only, and that the Caldari as a whole recognize Achura on Saisio III as Sukuuvestaa citizens (therefore addressing them in the same way as they would any Caldari), but that Sukuuvestaa may have some agreement with Achura leaders that grants them special privileges in return for allowing Sukuuvestaa significant control over much of the planet for their own purposes. In other words, Sukuuvestaa is considered to "own" Achura, but in order to not piss off the Achura population, it grants them significant latitude to conduct their own affairs. this could explain both the "client state" idea as well as fit it into the corporate sovereignty that defines Caldari government.

[Aria Jenneth]

So, when a Deteis says "haan(i)" to Achura or any other ethnicity, Deteis means, that this Achura is a comrade, and should be treated as other Deteis, "you are like me, you are one of us, and we will show you respect as one of us".

Same way, "-jaijii" would mean "you are not one of us, and don't expect respect here".

Agreed thus far.

From my point of view, polite Caldari should still call this Achura "haan(i)", if this Achura is welcomed, even if this person is not "one of us" culturally, but hasn't done anything disrespectful.

That might be a polite thing to do, but I'm not sure it would be the norm. The Achura, being culturally Achura rather than an ethnic Achur who is culturally Caldari, is definitionally not "one of us" and is either at home (in which case, the Caldari is the outsider) or is visiting-- and, because the Achura is not culturally Caldari, is therefore out of place. Remember that the Caldari do not welcome even client peoples to come and live among them; clients are expected to keep to themselves.

An Achur who is not presently doing so may be tolerated, but is not quite welcome.

"Ah, you are here for supplies, Cho-achurai? Excellent. Come have a look; I think you will be pleased-- and please stay for some refreshment before your journey home."

In this example, a Caldari (possibly even ethnic Achur) trader welcomes an Achur's business, but also recognizes (1) their difference in culture (through use of title) and (2) the expectation that the visitor will be returning a fair distance home once their business is concluded. This strikes me as a probably common exchange.

Well, Achur who is Achur by choice might prefer to be called with honorific, that other Achur use for each other. For example, if Ryeon-achur would prefer to be called this way, you will show respect by satisfying this request. But otherwise, I still think, that Caldari should call them still "haan(i)".
As for how one Achura should call another - I have no idea. "-achur" sounds for me a bit weird 

I think you might be giving the Caldari a little too much credit for caring about other people's feelings. Remember, the non-integrated Achura have legal rights within the State only because they have client status; otherwise, they'd be nonentities, people who don't exist under Caldari law. It seems likely to me that most Caldari, including many integrated Achura, feel that the protections the rural Achura receive are pretty much all they're entitled to-- they're a protected people, and possibly sort of like poor cousins (the Achur faith is apparently recognized by followers of the Way as a different way of looking at the same truths), but outsiders just the same. Embracing Achur titles would be incorporating an aspect of their culture into the Caldari's own, which, aside from SuVee advertising campaigns, the Caldari seem in no hurry to do.

As an aside, the Achura seem to call themselves the Achura (as opposed to the Saisiovians or the Saisians or something). Probably, even calling them "Achura," thus using the Achur name for their own world, is a gesture of respect.

Ugh. It sounds more like weird, creepy and disrespectful for me. Of course, we call Intaki those, who are from Intaki, Gallente, those who are from Gallente, say, like Americans who are from America, etc. As for me, it would be verrrryyy verrryyy creepy for me, if someone would use constantly "Earthling" as honorific while addressing to me. And for other countries, say, if american John Smith will visit United Kingdom and will be called "American Smith" instead of "Mr. Smith", I think it will be rather discriminative than respectful, because you will accent on Smith's difference from other peoples, telling him that he is not one of them.

Agreed-- but these days those are liberal democracies you're describing. Their cultures tend individualist. To the Caldari, one's national origin is likely similar to a family name. One uses "-haan" to designate a family member and "-jaijji" to designate a stranger, but there must be a word for a sort of distant second cousin like the Achura or allied Intaki.

[Mithfindel]

As a little note, I use Napanii only on my Deteis. In some player fiction, it is an originally Deteis language. Therefore, my Civire will tend to avoid using them, replying with the -haan(i) honorific if addressed with the same.