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[Aria Jenneth]

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/modern-finances-report-cloned-soldiers-provide-high-return-on-investment/

So, this is fun.

Aside from the usual canonical world-versus-gameplay WTF ("Wait. Why exactly would you put this much effort into training and equipping a functionally immortal soldier and then LET THAT SOLDIER FREELY SWITCH ALLEGIANCES TO HER OR HIS HEART'S CONTENT? How exactly is that cost effective for the agency that, y'know, did all the training?"), it appears that DUST operatives' place in the world is solidifying.

It also appears that CCP has its DUST soldier variant of capsuleer dementia ready to go: an "extreme form of PTSD."

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not sure I'm buying that last, at least not as written. A look through the documentation on RL Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder suggests that the disorder is brought on by incidents of extreme fear and especially helplessness, whether that means combat, rape, torture, a mugging, or diagnosis with a life-threatening illness.

It does not, at a cursory glance, appear to necessarily be brought on by traumatic pain (in the absence of extreme fear), which is the primary button CCP has been pushing for the mental degradation of DUST soldiers (see, e.g., the description of DUST medical nano-injectors). Other aspects of DUST soldiers' characterization suggest that DUST soldiers come to lack even a "basic self-preservation" level of fear: they become fearless to the point of recklessness, demonstrating lousy risk-versus-reward calculation.

That part fits, both with play style in practice and CCP's stated intent for same.

I don't doubt that DUST soldiers end up as "war dogs," ill suited to returning to civil society; I just don't think PTSD is a plausible reason, as such, certainly for those who stick with it long-term. I'd think the issue would be more one of detachment, similar to capsuleer "issues" but different in kind (DUST soldiers don't get the ship's-eye-view), and a learned tendency toward disregard for human life.

Thoughts?

[Tabor Murn]

I imagine there is some sort of hand waving involved since we're dealing with science fiction super soldiers. While many cases are as you said, brought on in situations of extreme fear, it is possible to be traumatized by situations where there is not threat of death to the individual. I'm sure the dust battlefield would cause acute stress to even a trained individual.

One of the criteria for PTSD is the symptoms have to exist at least a month after exposure to trauma. I'm uncertain how that would moderated by the frequent cloning that dust soldiers undergo.

[Lyn Farel]

It's always the same issue, like with the capsuleers. Why are the empires that control and educate them letting them the choice to get freely out ?

Instead of putting them under the control of the empires in the first place, CCP should have made the tech slowly leak everywhere so that every organization can educate them, which makes their original affiliation irrelevant eventually. No need to keep them in your clutches exclusively when everyone can afford them.

[Aria Jenneth]

I'm sure the dust battlefield would cause acute stress to even a trained individual.

"Gods DAMN it getting cut in two with a plasma shotgun hurts!"

... Much with the pain (and maybe fear of pain). Maybe not so much with the helplessness or fear for one's continued existence. Still, it might provide a useful explanation for why so many DUST soldiers end up retiring (the old thing about how nobody plays an FPS for more than a year).

As a thought, it's a little like aversive training-- shocking a rat whenever it pushes the wrong button, only in this case it comes with repeated helpings of "Oh, gods, I'm dying!"

Some soldiers begin to treat the situation, mentally, something like a game in which "losing" has aversive training elements, adjusting their internal perception of their reality so that they try to avoid pain but do not fear for their lives. Such soldiers would probably have MAJOR trouble fitting back in with human society, since that perceptual switch is difficult to un-flip.

Others cannot quite get past the horror of "I actually felt that blaster bolt cook my face," and cannot switch off their mortal dread. They may follow their companions' recklessness, but get more mentally and emotionally battered every time they go down and soon become unable to function. That could work.

One of the criteria for PTSD is the symptoms have to exist at least a month after exposure to trauma. I'm uncertain how that would moderated by the frequent cloning that dust soldiers undergo.

Well, there might be some moderation of stress chemicals with each clone transcription, but I wonder whether abruptly putting the transferred mind into a new chemical state with each transfer might not have worse long-term effects than attempting seamless continuity.

[Creep]

...Pain is scary.

[Aria Jenneth]

Jayne offers a bit more than just pain, Creep.

As in, someone bigger, stronger, faster, and more ruthless than you are. Much with the helplessness there. That's the "torture" PTSD source type.

[Natalcya Katla]

"People scare better when they're dying." 

[Ché Biko]

I would like to note that the article makes mention of "Potential negatives". Also, the press in New Eden is pretty much as trustworthy as in the real world.

And I also imagine that it's not so much the fear of death, but the fear of dying. It would explain why currently few Dust bunnies wait for someone to revive them. "To hell with me drowning in my own blood, pull the plug!"

[Esna Pitoojee]

Looks good so far, although I would add in that there is one big element of DUST-dom we have absolutely no analogue to compare to: Repeated brain scannings and burnings into new clones. For all we know, that itself could be a HIGHLY traumatic experience with its own PTSD triggers (although personally I'd have gone with something more like Schizophrenia, DID, or Huntington's Disease induced by the above).

[Aria Jenneth]

Looks good so far, although I would add in that there is one big element of DUST-dom we have absolutely no analogue to compare to: Repeated brain scannings and burnings into new clones. For all we know, that itself could be a HIGHLY traumatic experience with its own PTSD triggers (although personally I'd have gone with something more like Schizophrenia, DID, or Huntington's Disease induced by the above).

It seems to be pretty disorienting, initially. There's no indication in the PF that it's actually painful or, by itself, destabilizing, however.

Of course, if your new self arrives by drop uplink, that's another kettle of agonizing fish.

[Makkal]

I think they should develop their own, unique psychological profile and 'duster dementia.'

If CCP just decides to go with PTS, I'm sure we can come up with something better.

[BloodBird]

I really don't see the major issue here - "When hurting, eat gun?" - assuming your in a condition to do so, the only thing a pain-averse Dustie should fear would be a situation where he/she was wounded to the point of being unable to self-terminate, assuming there is not some mentally activatable kill-switch you can flip to end it and return in a fresh run.

When death is meaningless, the only remaining scare-factor is immense pain, and assuming most infantry weapons and vehicle-mounted ordinance is highly effective at it's task, the situations where you last for a bit should be quite few. Even then there is the potential way out?

[Creep]

Jayne offers a bit more than just pain, Creep.

("Pain is scary" is his line in that scene.)

[Aria Jenneth]

I think they should develop their own, unique psychological profile and 'duster dementia.'

If CCP just decides to go with PTS, I'm sure we can come up with something better.

Hmm. Well, "capsuleer dementia" (which I swear to the divinity of your choice I didn't invent) is based on observable behavior by capsuleer player characters, both "immersionist" and not.

It's pretty obvious.

DUST mercs are inevitably going to be a little more subtle. The people who don't really "get into it" are probably those who will move on to something else soon enough, while I suspect those who stick around will mostly be members of standing corporations. The more successful ones are apt to act in a manner that would nearly be reasonable for an RL soldier under similar circumstances.

What's really going to be telling is how DUST mercs (myself very much included) interact in practice with PvE elements. If CCP gives us destructible apartment buildings, will we destroy them? If it gives us enemy soldiers, do we insist on wiping everybody out, or do we just get the job done and go home?

How willing are we to die in order to give our teams a momentary advantage? (I already do this, often-- it's amazing how many people you can drive insane with bloodlust by wearing a scout suit and running right through their lines, bobbing and weaving like mad. Every hostile you draw off is someone who isn't killing your team or providing meaningful support to their own for as long as you survive.) How willing are we to slaughter pointlessly?

It's entirely possible that DUST soldiers (I'm sure Aria will have a thousand theories why) will be crazy in much less alienating ways than capsuleers-- more prone to reckless disregard for their own lives, less prone to reckless disregard for others'. And wouldn't that be interesting?

I really don't see the major issue here - "When hurting, eat gun?" - assuming your in a condition to do so, the only thing a pain-averse Dustie should fear would be a situation where he/she was wounded to the point of being unable to self-terminate, assuming there is not some mentally activatable kill-switch you can flip to end it and return in a fresh run.

When death is meaningless, the only remaining scare-factor is immense pain, and assuming most infantry weapons and vehicle-mounted ordinance is highly effective at it's task, the situations where you last for a bit should be quite few. Even then there is the potential way out?

DUST troops can suicide at will. That's not really the issue. The issue is mid- to long-term mental health. You don't have to lie there and slowly bleed out, but you do experience the traumatic injury that has you bleeding out in the first place. It's one of those situations where, if you're lucky, you just got pulped or your head got blown off.

If you're unlucky, you're suffering a deep puncture from a rail flechette, mitigated somewhat by your suit's now-breached armor matrix. If it hadn't been partially stopped, the kinetic energy would have torn you neatly apart. As it is, it's just splintered one of your ribs and ruptured a couple of your favorite organs.

Owie.

Even if you bail out, that's a bad moment.

Edit:

Also, there's the drop uplink, the short-range wormhole generator. Using it results in agony, followed in short-ish order by cellular (or something) degeneration and death. THAT has got to be an experience and a half: every nerve in your body reporting not only spatial warping but also that at least some of it wasn't put back together quite right.

Jayne offers a bit more than just pain, Creep.

("Pain is scary" is his line in that scene.)

Oh.

Well, I guess I've failed to keep my Firefly quotes properly memorized. Must remember to rewatch (though it always makes me sad).

[Samira Kernher]

PTSD arises from more than just personal injury. It also relates to the things you see and witness--the site of people being blown into bloody chunks, for example. Also, being able to clone doesn't change the fact that you're being constantly put into high stress situations. Even if you can ultimately "survive" it, that doesn't change the effect that constant stress is going to have on you.

So, I don't see PTSD being all that wrong of a diagnosis. War is hell, even when you survive it.