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[lallara zhuul]

It's pretty, and portrays both games very badly.

Combat in EVE is hammering function keys and twiddling with a laggy interface with your right mouse button, not swooping in a massive Star Wars like epic fight.

It is lag to the extreme.

DUST is your regular FPS where you spawn and die, spawn and die, spawn and die, ad nauseam, nothing epic about that.

Also I love how the trailer shot down all this 'being the ship' nonsense out of the capsuleer interface.

PS. You can't die outside the pod in the game, ever. Because all of the game happens inside the pod.

[Iwan Terpalen]

PS. You can't die outside the pod in the game, ever. Because all of the game happens inside the pod.

Well, except for the part where you're sitting in a small apartment with an inexplicably locked door.

[Aelisha Montenagre]

PS. You can't die outside the pod in the game, ever. Because all of the game happens inside the pod.

Well, except for the part where you're sitting in a small apartment with an inexplicably locked door.

In a way, we die out of the pod whenever we press the WiS button... or am I mistaking that dying inside feeling?

All joking aside, I thoroughly enjoyed the trailer for what I considered it to be: day 1 intro to the very basics of EVE lore that brings people up to speed on the essentials and leaves a lot of questions hanging.  Questions that may lead them to further engagement with the lore as a result.

[BloodBird]

Really a great piece of work, but I dislike the short bit about the Empire supposedly losing their grasp on power. It's complete bullshit, and added only to make new players feel powerful and special, beyond what they might already be as capsuleers.

In order to be a Capsuleer, you end in one out of two camps. The NPC capsuleers under the direct employ of the Empires and those that work for CONCORD, or an "independent" capsuleer like all the players. The independents even are not really that independent.

Even in null-space you have to pay a monthly fee to CONCORD to keep your *license* active or be dis-allowed to even activate your capsule and undock. Yes, paying your fees to CCP to play the game is in canon as a capsuleer license fee.

The market, your movements, your actions, all monitored by a division of CONCORD.

The full weight of the capsuleers, independent or no, are still overall good for the Empires. The taxes you pay, all the time, the actions you make - how many people do the Empire's work for them through missions alone? How many loyalists are there out there helping one government or another through whatever means they feel like employing, even if independent? How many are out in null "building their empires" and at the same time setting up infrastructure in wild-space and keeping the pirate factions down by intercepting their patrols and smacking them down?

Weighted against that are the capsuleers who pirate - their own kind and still help run the economy in some way - or suicide gank, or declare their loyalty to other, non-empire factions who are often direct enemies of theirs. Even then CONCORD are aware of where they are and what they do.

In short, we have had this conversation in many topics before, and frankly that part about the Empires losing their grasp is not supported by in-game realities. The PF, supported by game-mechanics, speaks against it. It was not needed to ad that bit. Except to make the new guys feel more special. "I'm rebelling against the system, yay."

[Jade Constantine]

Really a great piece of work, but I dislike the short bit about the Empire supposedly losing their grasp on power. It's complete bullshit, and added only to make new players feel powerful and special, beyond what they might already be as capsuleers.

In order to be a Capsuleer, you end in one out of two camps. The NPC capsuleers under the direct employ of the Empires and those that work for CONCORD, or an "independent" capsuleer like all the players. The independents even are not really that independent.

Even in null-space you have to pay a monthly fee to CONCORD to keep your *license* active or be dis-allowed to even activate your capsule and undock. Yes, paying your fees to CCP to play the game is in canon as a capsuleer license fee.

The market, your movements, your actions, all monitored by a division of CONCORD.

The full weight of the capsuleers, independent or no, are still overall good for the Empires. The taxes you pay, all the time, the actions you make - how many people do the Empire's work for them through missions alone? How many loyalists are there out there helping one government or another through whatever means they feel like employing, even if independent? How many are out in null "building their empires" and at the same time setting up infrastructure in wild-space and keeping the pirate factions down by intercepting their patrols and smacking them down?

Weighted against that are the capsuleers who pirate - their own kind and still help run the economy in some way - or suicide gank, or declare their loyalty to other, non-empire factions who are often direct enemies of theirs. Even then CONCORD are aware of where they are and what they do.

In short, we have had this conversation in many topics before, and frankly that part about the Empires losing their grasp is not supported by in-game realities. The PF, supported by game-mechanics, speaks against it. It was not needed to ad that bit. Except to make the new guys feel more special. "I'm rebelling against the system, yay."

Listening to the keynotes it really seemed that the origins video did express the companies view for the future of the game. Aspirational rather than current reality perhaps but things have moved a long way already. I can remember being condemned as a terrible roleplayer because I played Jade as having access to clone backups outside the capsule (ie the sequential instance being effectively immortal and unkillable) - then we had portable burning scanners, soft cloning etc. Then I was told my character was still a slave of concord because they owned the cloning stations - I installed a clone on my own bays on board a Titan and asked now what?

Reality is CCP want capsuleers to feel powerful and have set up a system of decaying npc hegemonies 
Specifically to be kicked over by the transhuman revolution to come, it's pretty much their backstory.
Listening to future visions of truly independent nullsec, player built destructible stargates and exploration of virgin territories on the verges of space, well, its difficult to see that anyone really believes in the supremacy of npc empires lasting much longer.

Do we like the future where the power of the Amarrian or Caldari empires is eclipsed by Goonswarm and its coalitions? Where the might of the gallentean navy is laughable against the supercap deployments PL can manage? Where small cabals of capsuleers can destabilise the fortunes of the Matari republic with market speculations on epic scale?

Well, like it or not that's where we are and putting ones head in the sand and refusing to believe in the fading prestige and vanishing prowess of the old empires may well be your character's view of New Eden, and that is your personal choice. I suspect its not a viewpoint that CCP prime fiction, plot teams, and video makers are going to be reinforcing much in the future if their comments at fan fest are to be taken at face value however.

[Silas Vitalia]

I'll be on my way out when that happens.  =/  while my gameplay revolves around other players my focus and rp has always been tied to the empires and their supporters. If they are removed from the picture and the only mirror we have left is the derpery of most capsuleer groups, it doesn't leave much room for good pf plotting from the writers. =[

[lallara zhuul]

Also what contradicts that quite forcefully is the fact that most capsuleers are in high-sec working for the empires directly or indirectly, even the markets that the null sec sell their stuff in is in the empires.

At the moment there is no real way to create solid infrastructure in the null sec areas comparable to the empires, before that all the chest beating on the transhuman revolution or the importance of the null sec folk is just words in the wind.

[Jade Constantine]

I'll be on my way out when that happens.  =/  while my gameplay revolves around other players my focus and rp has always been tied to the empires and their supporters. If they are removed from the picture and the only mirror we have left is the derpery of most capsuleer groups, it doesn't leave much room for good pf plotting from the writers. =[

It took several hundred years for the Roman Empire to fall, plenty of time for decent roleplay in the ruins and civil wars that attend the passing of monolithic power structures yet to come.

I do agree with you that the way the largest player alliances portray themselves is pretty crappy on balance, but at this point continuing to make believe that the npc empires are not on their way to being out evolved and discarded to the cultural rubbish tips of history is a bit like waiting for the naval officer throughout the whole narrative of lord of the flies.

[Jade Constantine]

Also what contradicts that quite forcefully is the fact that most capsuleers are in high-sec working for the empires directly or indirectly, even the markets that the null sec sell their stuff in is in the empires.

At the moment there is no real way to create solid infrastructure in the null sec areas comparable to the empires, before that all the chest beating on the transhuman revolution or the importance of the null sec folk is just words in the wind.

Well working for doesn't automatically equate loyal to. Agent running is merc work really, the huge majority of capsuleers have next to zero actual loyalist sentiment and would swap sides and work elsewhere the moment the advantage dictates. As for he lack of infrastructure that's again the sense of what CCP seemed to be implying they would address in the keynotes and upcoming expansions.

[Aria Jenneth]

I'll be on my way out when that happens. 

I have to admit, I don't really understand this angle on RP, or the one that says "Oh God, CCP has ruined [empire of choice] because [insert dramatic current event here]."

It's like saying that my RL "role" as an American got ruined by 9/11. Yes, I'm something of a civil libertarian, and I believe in the rule of law. Gitmo disgusts me right down to my toes. But the cultural and political shifts of my nation do not change me; nor does its arguable decline as a world power diminish me as a person.

My disagreement with bits of history I have lived through does not position me very well to insist that the wheels should stop.

Eve is a living universe. That is a feature, not a bug. If it takes something treasured away, it gives something back-- like the new motivations or even new loyalties that arise from seeing something you love crumble into dust. Sometimes the storytelling isn't perfect, but it's not like George R.R. Martin is likely available for hire (at least affordably).

Our characters live in "interesting times," in the sense of a Chinese curse. Things fall apart. The center cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Jade has a very positive take on this, IC and OOC. IC as OOC, I regard her optimism as downright Panglossian: capsuleers are deeply unsuited to trying to maintain any kind of civilization. Even baseline human beings have a hell of a time with it.

But, you know, that's not necessarily a bad thing. GRIMDARK makes for excellent roleplay, and I'd be only too happy to be along for the ride as old orders crumble towards a new Dark Age of warring gods and their tribes of luckless worshippers. Even if I weren't playing a character who walks the border between philosopher, predatory psychopath, and evil spirit, nostalgia for the way things used to be is itself a powerful dramatic motivator. If my order is based around a vase, and someone comes along and smashes it, I'll just have to go and found the Order of the Broken Vase.

[Ché Biko]

Ah, there be the reasons for my shivers.
I also had the idea that there are interesting times ahead, both good and bad.

[Louella Dougans]

Also I love how the trailer shot down all this 'being the ship' nonsense out of the capsuleer interface.

I found it a bit curious how similar the apparent view presented to the pilot, was to the actual game interface.
WARP DRIVE ACTIVE

Yeah, I noticed that too.

I'll be on my way out when that happens. 

I have to admit, I don't really understand this angle on RP

The way I see it, is, that if the npc empires are irrelevant, the setting is irrelevant. The Amarr-Minmatar conflict, when reduced to X is more profitable than Y per hour of gameplay, doesn't seem as interesting.
What reason is there for people to fight?
e.g. Andreus Ixiris and Vikarion are utterly opposed to each other, because one is Gallente, the other Caldari. When the Empires are irrelevant, then that opposition is irrelevant, and becomes an obstacle to mutual profit. The only reasons to continue opposition are spite and stupidity. Does that make for compelling gameplay?

When the setting becomes irrelevant, then development stagnates. Investment in the game background is not justifiable to the developer. Background material is expensive, because of the requirements for translation. We saw that with Incarna. Untold thousands of dev hours allegedly spent to make clothes, and no-one was available to write fluff news pieces.

There's three things that make a game, that I can see. Setting, mechanics, community. People play some buggy games because they really like the setting. e.g. Vampire-the Masquerade-Bloodlines. that was a buggy game, yes? The whole Elder Scrolls, also full of bugs. People still get really into those games, because they have a good setting, and also a community of modders and twiddlers that do all sorts of stuff, that counteracts the poor mechanics of the games.

There are other games that have a blandish setting, but good mechanics and community.

EVE... the mechanics aren't great. And when the setting is irrelevant, there's only community. And that's not really enough, is it?

Currently, depending on what news sources you look at, it would seem the major 0.0 blocks have an agreement not to fight each other. Players in those blocks find themselves with nothing to do, except to speculate about why the other blocks don't want to fight, and it all comes down to allegations of RMT and bots. There's talk about "crafting a narrative" to justify invading other blocks, but the alliance fleet commanders are hesitant because they don't like the boring mechanics of sovereignty invasions. The rumour mills also allege that the fleet commanders don't want their RMT botnets disrupted.

If that's the way that CCP wants to go, then that's the way CCP wants to go, but I would feel that Green/Grey/Gold/Rust Ships Online wouldn't be as compelling a game, and wouldn't hold interest for long.

We'll see.

[Aria Jenneth]

The way I see it, is, that if the npc empires are irrelevant, the setting is irrelevant.

Ancient Rome remains relevant to this very day. It undergirds massive portions of Western culture. The Greco-Roman gods remained staples of European culture for centuries after no significant number of people worshipped them anymore.

"Fall" and "disappear" are wholly different things, as are "dead" and "irrelevant."

e.g. Andreus Ixiris and Vikarion are utterly opposed to each other, because one is Gallente, the other Caldari. When the Empires are irrelevant, then that opposition is irrelevant, and becomes an obstacle to mutual profit. The only reasons to continue opposition are spite and stupidity. Does that make for compelling gameplay?

It certainly can. GRIMDARK, remember?

Presume for a moment that people are merely animals, properly wired to operate in groups about the size of a modest village (140 or so individuals). Anyone from outside that circle, we need reasons NOT to kill, or at least to care whether they live or die (scarcity may cease to exist, but animals that evolved in an environment of scarcity will continue to act as though it does. I suspect anybody who owns multiple cats will have some idea whereof I speak). Civilizations function largely by finding ways to expand that circle (adding national identity as part of the "circle of care," for example).

The breakdown of civilization, in that case, doesn't eliminate reasons to fight; it multiplies them by removing reasons not to.

(Did I ever mention that I come to my philanthropic tendencies by a back road?)

When the setting becomes irrelevant, then development stagnates.

Thing is, a setting of a collapsing civilization is the opposite of irrelevant. It's all-encompassing. Living in Europe at the time of Rome's sack by Germanic tribes, you wouldn't have considered it unimportant even if you'd personally been a Visigoth.

Carefully chronicling a descent into chaos-- tragedy on the scale of civilizations-- makes for a brilliant story. "Hamlet" isn't irrelevant or stagnant just because the hero dies at the end, and nobody said the empires were going to go "poof" at the halfway mark. Even if they did, there'd still be plenty of story left to tell about capsuleers, surviving baseliners, and pirate factions fighting over the corpses.

And then the Sleepers can get fed up with getting their elaborate virtual reality rig raided and mount an invasion of their own.

... I would feel that Green/Grey/Gold/Rust Ships Online wouldn't be as compelling a game, and wouldn't hold interest for long.

Again, "dead" and gone are wholly different things. Even if the Empire were to break up into warring fiefdoms, someone would still be saying, "Yes, this dropsuit was designed by the greatest artisans of that high and bygone age [that existed last year]. We just don't have engineers like that anymore. Wear it [and the others that we'll have manufactured to replace it when you inevitably get repeatedly offed] with honor."

[Louella Dougans]

Relevant to characters vs relevant to Players.

The NPC powers of EVE have been relevant to characters, because it is the NPC powers that design ships, provide capsule training, and give reasons to fight.

If and when player corporations are allowed to design ships (does that ship design competition count?), or have buddy referrals start in their own space, or various other things that replace NPC functions, then the setting, whether it is of flourishing or fading civilisations is entirely irrelevant to both player and character.

[Aria Jenneth]

Relevant to characters vs relevant to Players.

The NPC powers of EVE have been relevant to characters, because it is the NPC powers that design ships, provide capsule training, and give reasons to fight.

If and when player corporations are allowed to design ships (does that ship design competition count?), or have buddy referrals start in their own space, or various other things that replace NPC functions, then the setting, whether it is of flourishing or fading civilisations is entirely irrelevant to both player and character.

Perhaps, but I very much doubt we're ever going to get anywhere near that far. For one thing, null-dweller wish-fulfillment fantasies aside, high security space is NOT going away until CCP decides that life is not worth living.

You're mistaking a changing canonical background for a vanishing canonical background; I don't see that happening at all, especially with CCP's renewed support for its storyline.