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Author Topic: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?  (Read 4990 times)

Aria Jenneth

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #15 on: 20 Apr 2013, 09:07 »

The main support for soft clones' existence is the various indications in cannon that killing eggers outside of their pods is just as futile (or almost as futile) as killing them in the capsule. This crops up in places like "Jita 4-4," as well as the description of the "Raven State Issue," which asserts that it is ineffective for a capsuleer to commit suicide.

The way I've always figured they worked was something like a backup activated if (1) the original's life signs cease, if they were being directly monitored; or (2) if the original fails to give occasional signs of life (paper trail goes utterly cold for, say, a month). These are probably customizable.

Yes, I think the cannon supports it. No, I didn't always think so. No, I don't actually like it much; it encourages zero-tension roleplay.

It does, however, make it a little more reasonable for even the most paranoid capsuleer to get out and go for a walk. So there's that.

Edit:

Oh! Also, there's some pretty neat drama potential if the original turns out not to be dead after all. I suspect the law requires that the soft clone "go back to sleep" (die, since the soft clone's separate experiences will presumably be overwritten in the next update) under these circumstances, which could make for some very "Blade Runner" scenes.

A REALLY fun couple of options is a capsuleer faking his/her death, then clonejacking somebody or even finagling a complete new capsuleer identity, leaving the soft clone running their life, or maybe just going baselining for a few years, leading to divergent personalities between original and clone.

It would take a lot of work to put a story like this together, given the tools at our disposal, but it could happen.
« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2013, 09:14 by Aria Jenneth »
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Scherezad

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #16 on: 20 Apr 2013, 09:17 »

Soft Clones are a fine enough idea, really, and as I see them they're just a copy of the Capsuleer of fine enough granularity that all of the synapses are appropriate, wth appropriate number of neurotransmitter channels at each synapse - a molecular-scale scan. Looking at it more deeply is the path to madness.

EVE cloning in general teeters on the brink of space magic - well, no, let's be honest, it's been thrown off into the abyss. I don't think there's going to be a satisfactory answer to this question beyond "person copy get" :/
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Shintoko Akahoshi

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #17 on: 21 Apr 2013, 10:42 »

Oh! Also, there's some pretty neat drama potential if the original turns out not to be dead after all. I suspect the law requires that the soft clone "go back to sleep" (die, since the soft clone's separate experiences will presumably be overwritten in the next update) under these circumstances, which could make for some very "Blade Runner" scenes.

And here I was bemoaning the corner I've RPed Shin into...  :cube:

Desiderya

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #18 on: 21 Apr 2013, 10:47 »

Not the best of 'PF choices', but TEA has the broker kill himself on purpose to get into new clones.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #19 on: 22 Apr 2013, 02:28 »

*shrug* I do things outside the pod. Some of these things are dangerous. If I die outside the pod then I'm not biomassing my character so....


Sea turtles Softclones
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Mithfindel

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #20 on: 22 Apr 2013, 04:24 »

Not the best of 'PF choices', but TEA has the broker kill himself on purpose to get into new clones.
I did get the image that the Broker has figured out a way to "multiclient", so to speak, and has several clones active. How he maintains coherence is not very clear to me. (Also, the usual implication for "being multi" would be insanity.)
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #21 on: 22 Apr 2013, 09:41 »

The instamatic hard scan thing and having single copy available at all time has a slight hint of individuality (and sanity) linked to the concept of soul.

Soft scans and cyber implanted hard scan devices we're injected to the player lore by Culture enthusiasts years ago, as far as I can tell they have never been verified by CCP.

If soft cloning has been retconned out of the EVEwiki, it would imply that the concept is not supported by CCP.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #22 on: 22 Apr 2013, 14:28 »

The problem with that  argument is that it has not been retconned out entirely. The exact mechanics the paragraphs discussed has been removed from official acknowledgement, but there is still tremendous amounts of PF indicating that softscanning must exist in some form or another.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #23 on: 22 Apr 2013, 14:31 »

Soft cloning was written out of EVElopedia, yet Falcon just mentioned it in a post on the official EVE forums a few weeks ago. -vOv-
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Ché Biko

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #24 on: 23 Apr 2013, 17:19 »

A relevant discussion on the EVE-O forums. Includes comments from CCP Eterne and CCP Falcon.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #25 on: 24 Apr 2013, 02:20 »

Doesn't a soft clone backup go against the CONCORD law in the sense that there is more than one copy of a person in existance?

Not running around of course, but still there is two (or more) copies of the same individual existing at the same time.

The fact that the copy is in 'stasis' (I'm not even sure if there is tech for this in New Eden) would probably not factor in, because a person could go into stasis and declare himself dead and avoid taxes, conscription, justice system, then reinstate himself as himself afterwards without any ill effects.

This just without any cloning malarkey.
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Mithfindel

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #26 on: 24 Apr 2013, 06:11 »

Just like having a ready clone waiting for your pod to go pop, the "soft clone double"  could be circumvented by having the mindstate kept separately and burned to the new body only after the old body is certainly dead. This would, however, cause some legal issues with the question of what makes a person dead. Also, if the blank brain still "functions" while the clone is not activated, I could see that there could be issues with the template brain starting to spontaneously make connections, which might mess with uploading the intended consciousness, or waking up if something goes wrong with storage.

The same thing with regular clones as well, though. I understand the Good Guy in TEA had a partial mind transfer done, interrupted by the Bad Guy, so he did not wake up in a completely blank state. The question is, which parts need to be functional while the clone is waiting activation and are these parts sufficient to call the clone a person? If they are, we have the case of accidental Frankenstein's monsters if clones are prematurely awakened. Therefore, let us assume that clone templates, before activation, have levels of brain damage (or rather, no brain) such that before the new brain is burned to the icky gooey parts, it does not have personality nor any ability to stay biologically alive without life support. Which makes the Good Guy Amarrian from TEA extremely lucky to have just enough stuff written in the brain to have only amnesia and a personality change. (And probably SP loss, though he demonstrated still very high level of subconsciously knowing how spaceships work.)

As such, the problem with soft clones comes down to two questions: First, the legal problem of how to secure the stored mind state in such of a way that accidental activation or theft is very, very, very difficult and unlikely to happen. Second, how the mind can be scanned for storage. The technically easiest way would be to use a regular, destructive scan and instead of burning the mind state, store it and burn a copy. However, the way soft cloning seems to be "intended to work" in many cases is a non-destructive scan, leaving the origin body alive and well. This has some extra complications. First, of course, is non-destructiveness of the scan. Second is accuracy of the scan to avoid changes or errors in the mind state (it is only partially understood, after all). Third is sufficient speed, shortness of time or otherwise ensuring that the patient's mind state stays constant during the scan, or I imagine the copy would not be of sufficient coherence. The case of Theseus's ship: Legend says the people of ancient Athens saved the ship the hero Theseus used when he went to kill the minotaur. When the ship rotted, they exchanged parts, eventually making part-by-part a new ship. The question with mind state is how much it can be allowed to change so that the person is still the same? In this case, I'd expect a chance of incoherence or schizophrenia/multiple personality, if the mind state changes during the scan.
« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2013, 06:13 by Mithfindel »
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Natalcya Katla

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #27 on: 24 Apr 2013, 07:07 »

The way I like to interpret the legal issue is that whatever criteria you use to determine the original person's death (and those could well vary), as soon as those criteria are met, and the backup clone is woken up and assumes the legal identity of the presumed dead person, then that new clone is the actual person in the eyes of the law, no matter what. If the original person then turns out to have been just missing or whatever, and returns, then that's tough luck to him or her. They are not persons any longer in the eyes of the law.

CONCORD law isn't supposed to be fair or just or reasonable, not in my book anyway. It is there to impose some kind of order onto the madness of interstellar society and capsuleers in particular.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #28 on: 24 Apr 2013, 07:18 »

What stops regular people from using the same loopholes in the system to avoid legal repercussions for their actions.

The aforementioned example would be a perfect way to avoid taxes linked to inheriting anything.

If used in unscrupulous hands it could be used to steal someones identity.

Making exceptions in the legal system for cloning and clones would probably have zero support in any nation in New Eden, which of course is a completely different issue.
« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2013, 07:20 by lallara zhuul »
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Shintoko Akahoshi

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Re: Soft clones, how do they work exactly ?
« Reply #29 on: 24 Apr 2013, 09:38 »

I think we're going to be able to draw some more conclusions about soft cloning from Karin Midular, if she dies. The news items say she's too badly injured to clone. She's not a capsuleer, so she's facing baseliner cloning, so obviously that's possible. If she does die, they'll either be able to clone her from a past scan (in which case we have our PF in favor of backup clones) or not (in which case we have our PF in favor of only real-time cloning). Looking at the PF some more (TEA excepted, I could never get into that thing) and reading the thread on cloning in the Eve Fiction forums, I'm starting to lean more towards cloning being a real-time thing only. Something about the fluid relay, perhaps.
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