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[Esna Pitoojee]

Here's the thing.

Our characters can destroy each other's equipment and clones for years on end. None of that will change things. Maybe now and then an enemy will get tired and move away, but attitudes don't change.

The only sure way to victory is winning over opposed characters to your point of view. You don't win over people by insulting them or ranting at them. So there is a good reason for civil discussion with an enemy.

For emphasis: This this this this, so much. I'll repeat what I've said before:

Esna has had more success in stopping capsuleer activities against the Empire with talk than with shooting.

[Caellach Marellus]

The only example I can give, is how it bothers the shit out of Cael how people are not only civil to members of Nation but are openly friendly and chatting away about the most trivial and sociable of day to day things.

It's like people forget or simply choose to throw the gravity of factionism out the window and "hug everyone who isn't a jerk to me in a personal only sense."


Then of course it bugs the shite out of me when people start rolling their eyes because Caellach has a natural inability to be friendly at all (I mean I love you guys OOCly but I'm not Cael) to them. He sits there thinking to himself "Has everyone gone through memory loss, or did I wake up in some alternative universe where Kuvakei uplifts hungry orphans and sick animals and nurses them them to health and prosperity out of the kindness of his own heart, WITHOUT the use of slaves and/or mindcontrol implants?"

There's various other scenarios that play out between characters that make little to no sense, which is why I'm glad people like Rodj (who gets a shit ton of unfair stick for being a grumpy old fart) who seems to have a sense of realism and situational awareness.

[Norrin Ellis]

The only example I can give, is how it bothers the shit out of Cael how people are not only civil to members of Nation but are openly friendly and chatting away about the most trivial and sociable of day to day things.

I find Nation to be the only monolithic, irredeemable evil in the EVE storyline.  The capsuleer class may claim to be following Sansha by choice, but it's reasonable to believe that even they have had their brains hijacked and zombified to some degree.  As a neutral, superficial character, it's easy to see members of other factions as merely misguided folks that might actually change their ways with enough positive reinforcement of good behavior, but Nation is nothing more than a hive of scum and villainy.

[Lyn Farel]

I would like the moderate that view on Nation a bit. I play a character that does not mind them as long as they do not threaten the whole society currently in place. Before incursions happened, the only thing she used to do was to oppose most of their loyalists since she believes that their usual propaganda is utterly ridiculous. She continues to do it by the way, even more now due to incursions, they have turned into the biggest hypocrites in the universe to her eyes.

But overall, she can't help but being overtly drawn by a lot of things she has in common with them. She is far from considering their society as evil (ok, she doesn't believe in evil or good, but still).

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I would like the moderate that view on Nation a bit. I play a character that does not mind them as long as they do not threaten the whole society currently in place. Before incursions happened, the only thing she used to do was to oppose most of their loyalists since she believes that their usual propaganda is utterly ridiculous. She continues to do it by the way, even more now due to incursions, they have turned into the biggest hypocrites in the universe to her eyes.

But overall, she can't help but being overtly drawn by a lot of things she has in common with them. She is far from considering their society as evil (ok, she doesn't believe in evil or good, but still).

Well, as a counterpoint to my earlier post.

Arnulf is fine with trying to influence Mary and Caldari bloc pilots in a calm and rational manner. But Nation, the Blooders and EoM inspire a mix of utter contempt and anger that make civil discourse difficult. Non covenant "moderate" Sani Sabik he just thinks of as pathetic.

[Desiderya]

There's a difference between hugfest and being civil to each other.
I can share the sentiments put forward by Silas, however, and often I consider the summit to be extremely superficial and absolutely un-serious. It is often difficult to notice whether you're following OOC or the summit, reinforced by the feeling I get that this 'hugfesting' comes from the fact that people seem to want to get on with everyone not just OOCly (which is fine) but also ICly (Which may not work with every alignment/type of character).
Now, a channel where everyone would constantly bitch at each other isn't the goal and with the Summit being the 'RP lobby' a certain amount of meaningless small talk should be what you'd expect.
Everyone has different styles and tastes, after all. Characters will be judged for what they do and how they behave - all IC - and that's about it for me.

[Victoria Stecker]

It's less the fraternization and more my having a hard time loading enough handwavium ammunition to believe some of these people would have ever made it through capsuleer training, or ever be entrusted with more than a nerf bat as a weapon.

Sometimes the behavior makes me think some people wouldn't have clearance to park a short bus let alone some of the most dangerous equipment in the cluster.

Well, maybe that's why they turn us loose as unaligned, independent capsuleers and let CONCORD deal with us.

What I mean: Each of the factions keeps their own capsuleers. Presumably, these are taken from the military and the most loyal to their faction. They keep the best and the brightest for themselves. Then they take the rest of us and say "well, I'm sure we can pay them to do useful stuff for us."

Actually, following that logic, I could almost make a YDIW case for anyone highly devoted to their faction: [please note that I'm not saying this, it's just an interesting line of thought] [spoiler]If you're so devoted, why didn't they keep you? If you're so dedicated to your cause, how'd you end up an independent contractor like the rest of us? [/spoiler]

That could actually lead to some hilarity IC. Start musing on possible explanations ranging from incompentence to heresy.

Anyhow.

[Desiderya]

I'd assume that you'd have some more possibilities as an 'independent capsuleer.'.
Do the dirty work without as much repercussions. Caldari Navy couldn't lead 10 battleships into Luminaire without an incident, Joe Capsuleer can.

But yeah, it'd be one of these situations where you'd have to fire up the handwavium generators.
Generally it's easy to be a loyalist. Like with everything in RP you only need a few written words to aggrandize your role.
Judge people by what they do and you'll see those who have their characters stick to their ideals, despite setbacks ic/ooc.

[Sepherim]

Well, maybe that's why they turn us loose as unaligned, independent capsuleers and let CONCORD deal with us.

What I mean: Each of the factions keeps their own capsuleers. Presumably, these are taken from the military and the most loyal to their faction. They keep the best and the brightest for themselves. Then they take the rest of us and say "well, I'm sure we can pay them to do useful stuff for us."

Actually, following that logic, I could almost make a YDIW case for anyone highly devoted to their faction: [please note that I'm not saying this, it's just an interesting line of thought] [spoiler]If you're so devoted, why didn't they keep you? If you're so dedicated to your cause, how'd you end up an independent contractor like the rest of us? [/spoiler]

That could actually lead to some hilarity IC. Start musing on possible explanations ranging from incompentence to heresy.

Yup, I agree. Seph has his explanation for why they didn't keep him, and it's a core element in his personality even if he rarely shows it.

[Ollie]

Can someone else back me up here with what I'm trying to explain?

Not sure I can explain it any better than you Silas, but maybe what you're trying to describe is - at least in part - this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality 

[Graelyn]

Someday, Ava Starfire and I are going to join forces and bring about Interstellar Peace. 

[BloodBird]

It's less the fraternization and more my having a hard time loading enough handwavium ammunition to believe some of these people would have ever made it through capsuleer training, or ever be entrusted with more than a nerf bat as a weapon.

Sometimes the behavior makes me think some people wouldn't have clearance to park a short bus let alone some of the most dangerous equipment in the cluster.

Well, maybe that's why they turn us loose as unaligned, independent capsuleers and let CONCORD deal with us.

What I mean: Each of the factions keeps their own capsuleers. Presumably, these are taken from the military and the most loyal to their faction. They keep the best and the brightest for themselves. Then they take the rest of us and say "well, I'm sure we can pay them to do useful stuff for us."

Actually, following that logic, I could almost make a YDIW case for anyone highly devoted to their faction: [please note that I'm not saying this, it's just an interesting line of thought] [spoiler]If you're so devoted, why didn't they keep you? If you're so dedicated to your cause, how'd you end up an independent contractor like the rest of us? [/spoiler]

That could actually lead to some hilarity IC. Start musing on possible explanations ranging from incompentence to heresy.

Anyhow.

Worked that one out years ago, it's actually absurdly simple:

The choice was between service however the nation that spawned you dictated, or service or not, at your discretion.

A) Join the Navy, be an elite AF pilot, upgrade to HAC's in a bit, eventually ending up with, say, all T2/T1/T3 certificates available in a decade or two, still doing EXACTLY what the navy tells you, when they tell you, IF they need you. Could work.

B) Alternatively, as my toon chose, (snd presumably all other toons who are ever made by players chose) go "independent" and work on supporting the nation in question at your own pace, by your own means, all the while rolling eyes at the 'demigods' and 'uber-humans' roaming around with their heads full of self-inflicted lies and egos on their sleeves for all to see. You may not be "officially" aligned with the faction of your choice, but you do your part, in your ways. *IF* you really want to.

Or you try at least. One of the negatives of not being enrolled in the Navy for instance is, you have to fund your own gear...

So far it's worked great, even with a bit of IC thoughts along the lines of YDIW for all the ones who fail to keep up to your own lofty standard... but then again, that means you have the operative freedom to deal with them, no?

[Sepherim]

B) Alternatively, as my toon chose, (snd presumably all other toons who are ever made by players chose) go "independent" and work on supporting the nation in question at your own pace, by your own means, all the while rolling eyes at the 'demigods' and 'uber-humans' roaming around with their heads full of self-inflicted lies and egos on their sleeves for all to see. You may not be "officially" aligned with the faction of your choice, but you do your part, in your ways. *IF* you really want to.

Not all, some of us got expelled from the Navy.

[Vincent Pryce]

Silas

[Silver Night]

My own feeling has always been that to not engage is to cede one of the fronts in the fight. If you don't do something to counteract enemy propaganda, then they may convince people that they should be on their side. The best way to engage is to seem credible and articulate. Being polite is a good way to look credible. Being polite to your enemies is a good way to look reasonable - and it is a good way to make them look less credible and reasonable if they are not polite in return.

This is all, of course, a little bit of a different context than going and having drinks with your sworn enemies. I can see reasons for that, too, though.