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[Vikarion]

This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari.

Except that it does -- or rather, it is a symptom of the Caldari mindset. The inherently suspicious, close-knit social structure that distrusts centralized authority, because it was the thing that nearly destroyed them 300 years ago. The Caldari have a decentralized government because they do not want to be put under anyone's thumb, and because none of the eight megacorporations trusts the others further than they can throw them.

Such symptoms are peculiar to confined time and space, but they are not universal constants. The society evolves, taking form that it believes to benefit the best. Or just was given a chance to become something new. This is a distinctive trait of a progressive society rather than the one that is stagnating.

Yeah, I think the problem is that one month it was "Meritocratic Caldari State is fine, fairly good relations with the Fed, economy is running fine", and three months later it was "actually, huge economic recession, the Caldari State is nepotistic, corrupt, and 95% of its citizens live worse than slaves. You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."

I understand that they needed a storyline for FW. But a "story" requires at least some consistency. In three months, the entire nature of the State from previous PF was discarded.

[Kyoko Sakoda]

I think the problem is that one month it was "Meritocratic Caldari State is fine, fairly good relations with the Fed, economy is running fine", and three months later it was "actually, huge economic recession, the Caldari State is nepotistic, corrupt, and 95% of its citizens live worse than slaves. You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."

I understand that they needed a storyline for FW. But a "story" requires at least some consistency. In three months, the entire nature of the State from previous PF was discarded.

Yeah, this was really the crux of the problem. So then how do you fix it?

Because that's really the problem here: the angst. It would be better to be constructive and suggest some outs. Arguing the past doesn't help anyone, including CCP itself.

[Gesakaarin]

I think there might be a tendency to romanticize meritocracy in the State. It's an important principle yes, but in practice it wasn't unsurprising that Heth came to power because corruption and abuses of power by those in power in the State was made possible in a relatively closed society where it's difficult to remove the Elites who game the system because there aren't any independent institutions to make them accountable or a free media to uncover it. The people are kept silent because if you blow the whistle you either lose your job or get the tanks to crush any protests you might have.

The irony is that while Heth and the CPD might have enjoyed popular support by promising to overturn the system, the amount of centralization of authority he's sought to, "Combat corporate corruption" has just meant that the most corrupt officials have supported him, because it's usually in a tyranny or dictatorship where they're even less accountable to the people - all they have to do is repeat the slogans required of them.

The driver might have changed but the power structures and bureaucracy in most of the Megas aside from Ishukone it seems have not.

[Publius Valerius]

This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari.

Except that it does -- or rather, it is a symptom of the Caldari mindset. The inherently suspicious, close-knit social structure that distrusts centralized authority, because it was the thing that nearly destroyed them 300 years ago. The Caldari have a decentralized government because they do not want to be put under anyone's thumb, and because none of the eight megacorporations trusts the others further than they can throw them.

Such symptoms are peculiar to confined time and space, but they are not universal constants. The society evolves, taking form that it believes to benefit the best. Or just was given a chance to become something new. This is a distinctive trait of a progressive society rather than the one that is stagnating.

Yeah, I think the problem is that one month it was "Meritocratic Caldari State is fine, fairly good relations with the Fed, economy is running fine", and three months later it was "actually, huge economic recession, the Caldari State is nepotistic, corrupt, and 95% of its citizens live worse than slaves. You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."

I understand that they needed a storyline for FW. But a "story" requires at least some consistency. In three months, the entire nature of the State from previous PF was discarded.

+1 Even If Im not effected by by this change, as I had join the game later. But I get our point.

I always saw EVE like Chess. Chess is a strategy board game*, for me EVE was a strategy game as well; just with internet spaceships. As like Chess you have of course you rules. Like, that the rook moves horizontally or vertically; or in EVE that Tech-I sub-capital-ships need to use gates etc..... You have like Abraxes ones mention (to lazy to search for the link): "THE MECHANIC". Those mechanic (the rules in chess) and the ships (the pieces in chess) are a key part of the game and its enjoyment.

But some are forgetting the board itself, with its 32 "light" and 32 "dark" fields; or in TonyG terms: 32 "good" and 32 "evil" fields. Nevertheless you have a "base", and the base is the chessboard. All possible moves and strategies are around this fact, that you have 64 fields. If take my half-ass metaphor further, Im not that far away of saying, that the lore of EVE = the Chessboard. So any change in this board has of course a effect on the past (1), present (2) and future (3) moves and strategies. So I totally get Vikarion position, that those changes can fuck up your past roleplay (1) (like RPgames with friends which were around the fact that the Khanid Kingdom was and is independent), or your present roleplay (2). If CCP changes a fact that field A8 isnt light anymore, but dark; you Sir are then, if you are in this position, of course fuck up. So, present changes can also fuck up your present roleplay. What is with the future? Of course, thru this changes of the facts: You will be also fuck up for further rolepaly (3).

The question is now (which I havent ask you Vikarion on the official forum. I just asked, what positive thingy you like to see flesh out): Do you have still the energy, to act, to adjust and to swallow those board changes?

If the answer is yes. You sir arent a bitter-vet. When you still have the energy to RP? Still? You arent a bitter-vet and nobody should call you that  .



As for me. I would answer with no. So Im bitter, but not a vet. So Im a bitter-newcomer  .

[Vikarion]

But some are forgetting the board itself, with its 32 "light" and 32 "dark" fields; or in TonyG terms: 32 "good" and 32 "evil" fields.

Heh, I love that.

Obviously, I'm still willing to do something, or I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't have participated in (and rallied, and local-FCed) the last live event in the Caldari State. On the other hand, I've seen people try to help CCP before, only to get abandoned or kicked in the balls. So my participation is limited, because I'm not going to give CCP the chance to do what they inevitably end up trying to do to Caldari (and, often, Amarrian) RPers: put them in a situation where they have to be truly evil (and stupid-evil at that)  or abandon their faction.

For example, we have the recent reports of Federal death squads operating in Black Rise. I could post about this, make a big deal about it, but then, based on prior behavior, it's highly likely that we'll find out that these death squads are actually Caldari. Then I'm in the position of looking like an utter idiot (which has happened enough to me already, thanks), or I have to back their necessity, in which case I'm a Nazi (I being my character, here). So, doing nothing is both the safest and wisest choice.

And doing nothing to interact with the storyline has become the safest and wisest choice for most Caldari groups and roleplayers. If you do not make yourself vulnerable to these events, if you don't interact with the story except to (barely) comment on the summit or IGS, if you don't actually do anything or start anything, then CCP is radically limited in its efforts to wreck your RP, whether those efforts are intentional or not.

[Lithium Flower]

Cultural mindsets do not generally change in the space of a few months. They are generational changes, and there's been no evidence of any such change or reason for such change.

Don't you think then that 300 years is a bit more than a generation, eh?

You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."

Well, I think it is a bit controversial who are more space nazis now, Caldari or Gallente.
I don't think that describing the State now as evil is a correct thing to do. The war that is going on, is simply for Caldari to take what they belive is rightfully theirs, war is waged over a limited number of disputed system and in general Caldari do not plan to seize all the power or to crush Fed completely (well, with exception of some individuals (teehehehehe) who would like to see Federation burning and turning to ashes because of personal or other reasons). There are no good and bad sides. Everyone is fighting for their interests.

Yeah, this was really the crux of the problem. So then how do you fix it?

Because that's really the problem here: the angst. It would be better to be constructive and suggest some outs. Arguing the past doesn't help anyone, including CCP itself.

Well, you can either accept it and stay loyal Caldari, or rebel against CCP and canon, becoming one of numerous "traitors", who are outcast of current depicted Caldari society, clinging on now discarded Caldari "past", and whose numbers are growing like mushrooms after a rain (which I believe is an ill tendency)

[Publius Valerius]

But some are forgetting the board itself, with its 32 "light" and 32 "dark" fields; or in TonyG terms: 32 "good" and 32 "evil" fields.

Heh, I love that.

Obviously, I'm still willing to do something, or I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't have participated in (and rallied, and local-FCed) the last live event in the Caldari State. On the other hand, I've seen people try to help CCP before, only to get abandoned or kicked in the balls. So my participation is limited, because I'm not going to give CCP the chance to do what they inevitably end up trying to do to Caldari (and, often, Amarrian) RPers: put them in a situation where they have to be truly evil (and stupid-evil at that)  or abandon their faction.

For example, we have the recent reports of Federal death squads operating in Black Rise. I could post about this, make a big deal about it, but then, based on prior behavior, it's highly likely that we'll find out that these death squads are actually Caldari. Then I'm in the position of looking like an utter idiot (which has happened enough to me already, thanks), or I have to back their necessity, in which case I'm a Nazi (I being my character, here). So, doing nothing is both the safest and wisest choice.

And doing nothing to interact with the storyline has become the safest and wisest choice for most Caldari groups and roleplayers. If you do not make yourself vulnerable to these events, if you don't interact with the story except to comment on the summit or IGS, if you don't actually do anything, then CCP is radically limited in its efforts to wreck your RP, whether those efforts are intentional or not.

True, but as I said it is really not your fault. I mean we they change the field... IT ISNT YOUR FAULT. So sadly, I can feel with you. And I think many others too. I remember a AJ-Member which had made some freaking awesome sleeper theories on the wiki page*. The last thing which I have heared from him, was a post on this board, that he is leaving because of the lore changes in T1 :(Sadly I cant find the topic). And I know, making the "Gallente evil" (see some of the newer news), doesnt change or problems; because "gallente evil", doesnt mean that the past fuck up arent there anymore**. So you are in a fuck up postion. Sadly I cant say something to pump you up.



*Of course Faulx and Mowens pages... and the many other pages, were also nice AJ reads.....
**"Gallente Evil"="Caldari arent space-nazi anymore" is a function which doesnt work.  or In other words.... one has nothing to do with the other, and cant fix the previous problems.
Edit: fix typo

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Don't you think then that 300 years is a bit more than a generation, eh?

Except that as Vikarion so eloquently stated, this was the case up until about 3 months before TEA came out, and then it got changed overnight because that's not what Tony felt like writing about, I guess.

[orange]

It appears the comments made in this thread were acted upon.  CCP Falcon mentioned this being discussed in Jan.

So, a few of us voiced concern over this whole event and how it might occur months before it happened.

Yeah, this was really the crux of the problem. So then how do you fix it?

Because that's really the problem here: the angst. It would be better to be constructive and suggest some outs. Arguing the past doesn't help anyone, including CCP itself.

Well, you can either accept it and stay loyal Caldari, or rebel against CCP and canon, becoming one of numerous "traitors", who are outcast of current depicted Caldari society, clinging on now discarded Caldari "past", and whose numbers are growing like mushrooms after a rain (which I believe is an ill tendency)

WTF is a loyal Caldari (or Amarr, Minmatar, or Gallente for that matter)? 

I play a character who has remained loyal to Lai Dai for more than 5 years.  The move to 4TH was couched as a loyal move, having supported the early Ichoriya/Black Rise market and helped mature it.  Besides LD needed to put something out of SuVee's reach.

Anyone who delves into the Caldari background much quickly finds there is no such thing as a Caldari-loyalist.

Then I'm in the position of looking like an utter idiot (which has happened enough to me already, thanks), or I have to back their necessity, in which case I'm a Nazi (I being my character, here). So, doing nothing is both the safest and wisest choice.

When we were left with scant details to understand what the power of the Executor & CPD were I argued that Heth's power was less than it was portrayed by others.   Only within the past few months has the breadth of Heth's powers been made readily apparent after nearly 4 years of neglect that left the story open to interpretation, especially given the scant news available.

I effectively get TEA twice, because I didn't buy into the Heth as supreme dictator line.  I followed the Lai Dai CEO/Board of Directors and they had a voice via the CEP, all of which continued to exist while Heth was KK-Ytiri-Caldari Constructions CEO and the CPD an organization similar to the Heiian Society - as in not registered with CONCORD.

[Gorion]

The Caldari already have the "Most Nazi Like" merit badge, Lithium. The State burned Gallente books. There is so much for me to catch up on this thread but let me just say that I stand behind Svetlanna on her stance in this matter. The Hethian segment of fluff in an abomination and should be treated as such. As for a lot of the bellyaching about "take it or leave it" for the fluff I refuse those choices. Rather change it any (RL legal) way you can.  For example, Gorion would kill Heth if given the chance. I refuse to accept that this is the best the State has to offer in the leadership department and it should be changed. If that means a bullet to the head their Gary-Stu, so be it.

[Lithium Flower]

WTF is a loyal Caldari (or Amarr, Minmatar, or Gallente for that matter)? 

Being a loyal means giving your full support to your nation and national politics, disregarding how good or bad it looks, because you have in first place a duty or oath to follow, or simple love to your kin, or maybe something wicked like love to your leader 

[Lithium Flower]

The Caldari already have the "Most Nazi Like" merit badge, Lithium. The State burned Gallente books.

Unfortunately, this is very one-sided look at the problem, because this national hatred is mutual. It is not only Caldari who hates Gallente, but also Gallente who hate Caldari as well, just look up chronicle "Taught Thoughts".

It is not enough to be a nazi by having a hatred to particular nation, or general xenophobia. It implies putting your nation above everyone else, declaring that all other nations (not only a rival one) are minor and should be  subjugated. I have to say, that I often play this "nazi" card by bringing up topics of national superiority, but I do it more like to annoy opponents, and represent character's personal views rather than racial trait.

Besides, I am ardent fighter against generalization of characters. In the first place they are peoples and motivated by their education, upbringing and personal experience, rather than simply being a Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar or  Gallente. So, when my character brings in nazi views, it means it has to do with certain event in character's past, rather than being part of likeminded creatures.

[Gorion]

Besides, I am ardent fighter against generalization of characters.

This is exactly why almost all of the old guard are upset. They took an interesting corporate pseudofacsist meritocracy and dumbed it down to might as well be Nazis IN SPAAAAAACE!

[Svetlana Scarlet]

*sigh* The Caldari were many things, but they were never fascist. Fascist implies the supremacy of the state, when the Caldari were the exact opposite -- they barely had a state to begin with. They were a corporate plutocracy.

[Gorion]

Yeah that.

---------------
In other news.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=217455

The GM Team would like to make it known that due to events that will be occurring in the system of Luminaire over the weekend, ships or capsules destroyed between downtime on Friday, March 22nd (11:00 UTC on 22/03/2013), and Downtime on Saturday March 23rd (11:00 UTC on 23/03/2013) will not be eligible for reimbursement.

Players who do not wish to be at risk of in game loss due to ongoing hostilities in the Luminaire solar system should be sure to add this system to their autopilot avoidance list and ensure they stay well clear of Luminaire over the course of the weekend. Ship or capsule losses between downtime on Friday, March 22nd (11:00 UTC on 22/03/2013), and Downtime on Saturday March 23rd (11:00 UTC on 23/03/2013) will not be eligible for reimbursement due to the ongoing conflict between the Gallente Federation and the Caldari State.

Very interesting.