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[Sepherim]

The reasons for disliking them are infinite. It is obvious, by now, you have a firm opinion on the matter and I respect that even if I don't share it. So I'll say I disliked them very deeply, and leave this conversation at that.

[Anslol]

See, if people just don't like him for taste, then whatever. But I've heard others just speak poorly about anyone who likes TonyG's books in the most acidic ways and it's like....seriously, come on. Questioning someone's competence in RL for liking his books? Jeesh.

OK, you like them. If they make you happy then fine. I have my own reasons for disliking them but I doubt you'd agree with them either.

But, have you never liked something and then seen someone make a change that you felt was bad to that thing? Didn't that upset you at all?

The difference is I didn't dislike the changes. It shook Eve up and made people upset at that change, which was smart to me. I mean look at what happened. People ICly question what happened and throw around accusations left and right. No one knows fully what happened but emotions run high on all sides and blame is spread all around. That blaming attitude turns to anger. Anger turns to action. The war continues and the story evolves.

I mean just look at this thread. How many years since and people still talk about TEA, in good AND bad ways. As far as I'm concerned, the book accomplished what it wanted and solicited the reaction from the player base needed to drive the story forward.

Is he the next Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke? Hell no, he needs to work on his English skills and grammar. I'll give you that much. But the story was still fun to me and added positively to the Eve universe, not negatively. I'd rather have a shake up than stagnation.

[Hamish Grayson]

It wasn't the change in the story line or that upset people.   What upset people is that CCP took a good product they were sellling and turned it into a poor product.   As a result they lost costumers.   I can't fathom why thats a good idea.

[Anslol]

I don't think they lost an obscene amount of customers because of a book. Incarna? Oh sure. TEA?...I need source.

[Vincent Pryce]

Hamish never said obscene amount. Just that CCP lost players. RPers are an small subgroup in the grand of scheme of EVE. After TEA came out a lot of the old timers went AWOL, the most noticeable the disappearance was among Caldari RPers. So while sub numbers were mostly unaffected, the RP community took a hit, one it is only now starting to recover from.

I can appreciate you are trying to see the best in TEA and you are like it. Majority of the EVE RP fanbase do not, as it took a universe of shades of grey with intra-faction intrigue and inter faction intrigue and forced it into black and white mold, with misogynistic overtones and nearly killed all of the intra-faction intrigue as suddenly everyone was we against them.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I think there are two issues here.

1) There is a difference between "Something that is good" and "Something you enjoy".

For instance my favorite movies are the "Escape from..." movies starring Kurt Russel.

This does not mean that they are objectively good movies (in fact by most standards they are objectively bad), just that I am entertained by them.  A lot.  More than I should be.

I almost bought a copy of 50 schlock horror films and only stopped because I really do not need a second copy of "Driller Killer"

2) IP Loyalty

There are a lot of very highly successful IP's that have horrible books written about them that sell plenty of copies (I am thinking, in particular, of Mechwarrior and Warhammer 40k here, but there are fantasy examples as well.  *coughdritztcough*).  The reason for their success has nothing to do with how good the books are, but because the nerds who like it will literally read any schlock you throw in front of them if it has to do with their chosen setting.

I have to believe that the EVE novels are somewhat similar in that regard.

[lallara zhuul]

Since TEA EVE has not been a MMORPG, now it is a MMOG.

That's just from CCPs end.

Not the players.

[Silas Vitalia]

Cleaned from trimmed land:

Anslol, most of us think the book was shit. Our opinions certainly don't outweigh yours, but when 9/10 of any group think a certain way its worth listening to their reasons.

You should never rely on other's to be tastemakers for you, but sometimes they have some grains of truth in their criticisms.

You are of course free to enjoy it as much as you like... but some of us have a visceral reaction when anyone talks about how much they love that novel.

More importantly Deux Ex Machina plots are fail and lack originality or agency for all characters involved.  Their struggles mean nothing when some other, or some super weapon, or some fantastical bullshit comes out of left field to drastically alter the plot and setting.  It's poor plotting.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The difference is I didn't dislike the changes. It shook Eve up and made people upset at that change, which was smart to me. I mean look at what happened. People ICly question what happened and throw around accusations left and right. No one knows fully what happened but emotions run high on all sides and blame is spread all around. That blaming attitude turns to anger. Anger turns to action. The war continues and the story evolves.

I mean just look at this thread. How many years since and people still talk about TEA, in good AND bad ways. As far as I'm concerned, the book accomplished what it wanted and solicited the reaction from the player base needed to drive the story forward.

Is he the next Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke? Hell no, he needs to work on his English skills and grammar. I'll give you that much. But the story was still fun to me and added positively to the Eve universe, not negatively. I'd rather have a shake up than stagnation.

I wasn't talking about the changes to EVE as such. I was trying to get you to empathise with the people who dislike the books by making you consider changes to things that you did find annoying.

Mostly I dislike the books because, to me, they take a far too simplistic view of the universe (From TEA: the change to portraying the Vitoc method as a widespread and common means of slave control). I also find aspects of the plot internal logic keep breaking my suspension of disbelief (From Templar One: A raging battle in Amamake involving capitals and no capsuleer notices and interferes or nobody ever calls Heth on being an ex terrorist). Finally I don't really care much about any of the main characters. The entire crew of the Retford just came over as sub-par Firefly ripoffs to me.

The Burning Life was more nuanced but clunked with clumsy writing more than a bit. Also the capsuleer at the end of the book was intimidated way too easily.

[Victoria Stecker]

I recall during one of the many previous discussions of TEA, someone put together a summary of ways that things could have happened which gave you the save end result - faction war - without taking a shit on Caldari RP or requiring monstrous deus ex machina abominations. it stayed within the character of each faction and their leadership, maintained shades os of grey and intra-factional conflict, but still got you your war feature.

FW itself did its harm to RP, but TEA really abused the factions and the PF with a plot that just doesn't seem to fit.

inb4 anslol is successfully trolling the shit out of backstage.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I recall during one of the many previous discussions of TEA, someone put together a summary of ways that things could have happened which gave you the save end result - faction war - without taking a shit on Caldari RP or requiring monstrous deus ex machina abominations. it stayed within the character of each faction and their leadership, maintained shades os of grey and intra-factional conflict, but still got you your war feature.

FW itself did its harm to RP, but TEA really abused the factions and the PF with a plot that just doesn't seem to fit.

inb4 anslol is successfully trolling the shit out of backstage.

Yes, "someone" did.

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1809.msg26558#msg26558

[Katrina Oniseki]

All Named female characters:

Tea (crew member on Retford) - infertile, gets yelled at repeatedly, gets severely injured while other crew members are unscathed. Other crew get capsuleer status, or a ship of their own, she gets fertility treatment. backstory has her as a victim of domestic violence, where she lost her unborn child.

Gable (medic on Lorado station) - repeatedly the target of harassment from Jonas, backstory has her victim of harassment at work, she turns to casual sex and drugs, etc.

Jamyl Sarum - Lol, well, she's a lost little girl without A Man to protect her.

Haatakan Oiritsuu (Kaalikiota CEO) - Ineffectual, submits easily to Tibus's schemes.

Mila Gariushi/Kenachi Hepimeki (Ishukone) - portrayed as being needy, easily scared, also dresses in outfit that "reveals cleavage".

Nilen Koina (caldari constructions director) - ineffectual, easily scared.

Ameliene (Elder agent) - basically, exists only to protect Keitan Yun. Has no personality. Gets beaten a few times.

Karin Midular (Republic Prime minister) - portrayed as whining, ineffectual, a moody girl that throws tantrums, is beaten and raped, then "learns her place" and is submissive thereafter.

Yana Marakova (Federation Navy) - capsuleer, is initially rather condescending towards Korvin the male Fed Navy pilot, she is podded, loses SP and is unable to fly, is submissive afterwards.

Camoul Hinda (court chamberlain advisor) - tells Karsoth he's screwing it all up, ends up beaten and turned into a drugged sex slave.

Ariel Orviegnoure (Fed Intel) - repeatedly interrupted, ineffective.

Ana Utulf (ammatar chief) - implied sexual harassment at hands of Amarr governor.

Grand admiral Kasora Neko (minmatar Fleet) - Ineffectual, unable to maintain any form of command over the fleet, ultimately told that her position is superceded by the Elders plans.

Chair Speaker Pauksuo (Concord) - Ineffectual, panicky, is shot by dreadnought.

non-named characters:

Satelles Girls whore - first introduction of a Gallente, is a large-breasted whore. (three of them)

Gallentean girl (prob. Satelles) - described as having, slender back muscles that merge into deliciously firm buttocks, toned legs, and a visage that would make any straight man yearn with lust, she is beaten to a pulp by Tibus Heth for being Gallentean. Tibus's reaction to this is "ewww, i touched a Gallente!"

Bisexual Blood Raider agent - talks dirty, likes sex, is kicked in the neck, dies.

unnamed prostitute on Lorado station - only exists to mention that Jonas likes oral sex, and was unsuccessful in obtaining such from Gable.

unnamed Gallentean women on Caldari Prime - out shopping for exotic underwear, hundreds/thousands of them are killed in the Caldari invasion.

unnamed slave girl - too slow to understand a minmatar soldiers instructions, shoots them in return for some Vitoc.

freighters with holds full of prostitutes.

various female receptionists, other staff members, etc. whenever notifying someone of things, are yelled at. They exist only to allow someone to say things like "silence, woman! I already know!"



Three Male characters, who the reader is supposed to dislike, all turn out to be Paedos & deviants

Karsoth - lol, just lol.
Tamo Heinulaila - is pistolwhipped, urinates on self.

Torkebaira Shutsu - tries to pleasure 3 girls at once, fails, ends up shooting self.

This pretty much sums up why I hated TonyG's Empyrean Age. It was a constant exercise in misogyny and rape scenes that served no plot purpose that could not have been achieved in other ways.

[Victoria Stecker]

I recall during one of the many previous discussions of TEA, someone put together a summary of ways that things could have happened which gave you the save end result - faction war - without taking a shit on Caldari RP or requiring monstrous deus ex machina abominations. it stayed within the character of each faction and their leadership, maintained shades os of grey and intra-factional conflict, but still got you your war feature.

FW itself did its harm to RP, but TEA really abused the factions and the PF with a plot that just doesn't seem to fit.

inb4 anslol is successfully trolling the shit out of backstage.

Yes, "someone" did.

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1809.msg26558#msg26558

God that feels like it was a long time ago. Still fantastic.

[Anslol]

So I'm trolling because I liked a book and give odd looks to overreaction..for a book and people who like said book?

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

No one has said you were trolling?