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[Svetlana Scarlet]

Or, you know, they could have left the entire Jovian bullshit out of it and actually given Jamyl Sarum some actual agency of her own, but don't be silly, wimmins can't do anything.

[Anslol]

Why would Jamyl have ANY clue about the Nova Cannon? It has nothing to do about bias about women so don't try to make it that. It was an interesting twist and plot device as well as a bit of a thought provoker.

Could it be possible for a purely informorphic being to be born in a cyber space? I'm sorry but you are incredibly bitter if you can't find that the LEAST bit interesting.

[Vikarion]

Anslol, your argument seems to be "if thing's didn't happen that way in the story, then the other things couldn't have happened."

Yes. That's very true. But that doesn't, for most of us, make it a good story. It makes it a story that's even more unrealistic and untrue to the setting.

[Anslol]

Why is it unrealistic and untrue? Please, tell me why?

I keep hearing arguments like that but I'm never given a solid reason why I should despise TEA or T1. Where's the unrealistic part of it? Why can't funds be efficiently hidden by higher up auditors? Why can't a highly advanced infomorphic being intercept and modify Sarum's infomorph?

As for realism in this, we're playing a game 20,000 years in the future where humanity tumbled through a wormhole and formed four distinct races and fly around in warp capable spaceships using magical star gates to traverse the cluster. Who's to say what isn't possible in this hyper-futuristic scenario?

[Vieve]

And then what, risk loosing the only clone of Sarum they had perfectly preserved for the past how many years?

I'll just leave this here.  http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sacred_Flesh.   Also shutting up before somebody splits the thread.

Or, you know, they could have left the entire Jovian bullshit out of it and actually given Jamyl Sarum some actual agency of her own, but don't be silly, wimmins can't do anything.

Hey, I'm still hoping to see Heth be turned into some lovely compost in Oiritsuu's garden.  Waste not, want not, and all that.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Why would Jamyl have ANY clue about the Nova Cannon? It has nothing to do about bias about women so don't try to make it that. It was an interesting twist and plot device as well as a bit of a thought provoker.

I thought the whole superweapon thing was unnecessary, but even if it was, there's no reason that Jamyl couldn't have found it before she died -- it's not like the Eve Gate is something no one knows about. I assume there are expeditions there all the time, why couldn't an expedition sponsored by her find it? And then spend years trying to decipher it? Why did she need some sort of Jovian mumbo jumbo to find it JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME and also make her a scared little girl when that seems completely out of character with the person she was before?

And you can claim it's not about women, but give me one female character in that book that had any agency or was a strong character on her own? I am not saying that Tony hates women (I don't think he does), but I do think he has a horrible time writing women and it makes me feel really shitty when women are all sex objects and/or helpless victims, because it doesn't exactly make me feel as if I am welcome in the world then.

Could it be possible for a purely informorphic being to be born in a cyber space? I'm sorry but you are incredibly bitter if you can't find that the LEAST bit interesting.

I found it very interesting, in the other 300 places I've read about it, where it was done far better. And none of that shit is in TEA.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Split from main thread - though I do believe we have other threads about Tony G and how terrible he is people feel about his writing. Feel free to continue the discussion here or in one of those other threads.[/mod]

[Anslol]

there's no reason that Jamyl couldn't have found it before she died -- it's not like the Eve Gate is something no one knows about. I assume there are expeditions there all the time, why couldn't an expedition sponsored by her find it?

Space is big. Very, very, very big. One solar system, even for Eve ships, is massive. How could Jamyl's expeditions comb every single square AU of that system and just happen to find a cloaked freighter carrying a super weapon? What are the odds? THAT to me is far more unbelievable than an ancient infomorph hijacking her and saying "lol look here noob. BTW here's how you put this mu fugga together. Do that so I can use you later and take revenge on the people that rejected me."

And as far as I'm concerned, Jamyl scared the living hell out of me. Possessed or not. Also, Oritsuu, even though she got ousted, scares me too. She's got the info and network to put Heth in his place and she knows it. Besides, who else in Eve is a strong female NPC character aside from Sylfi and the Syndicate whom we've really heard little from? Yes we have a few new Live Even actors who are female, but why weren't people screaming and crying before hand when CCP didn't make more strong women in Eve (at say, oh, the time TEA was written)?

As for what we find interesting, we can chalk that up to taste. I like ancient and (current) science defying mayhem. It goes to show that even IF humanity is 20,000 years advanced, we still aren't the top dogs, and never will be.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Space is big. Very, very, very big. One solar system, even for Eve ships, is massive. How could Jamyl's expeditions comb every single square AU of that system and just happen to find a cloaked freighter carrying a super weapon? What are the odds? THAT to me is far more unbelievable than an ancient infomorph hijacking her and saying "lol look here noob. BTW here's how you put this mu fugga together. Do that so I can use you later and take revenge on the people that rejected me."

The difference is, it would have given the Amarr some agency in their own salvation, not made it the province of some shadowy Jovian saving the day. In this game, the players can actually be Amarr, they can't be shadowy Jovians. A good tie-in novel should make players feel like they can be part of the bigger picture, not that they are forever going to be held to the whims of whatever mysterious forces run the universe. Of all the games where this should be have to be made clear, Eve is the last one you'd expect to have to remind the writers to do so.

And as far as I'm concerned, Jamyl scared the living hell out of me. Possessed or not. Also, Oritsuu, even though she got ousted, scares me too. She's got the info and network to put Heth in his place and she knows it. Besides, who else in Eve is a strong female NPC character aside from Sylfi and the Syndicate whom we've really heard little from? Yes we have a few new Live Even actors who are female, but why weren't people screaming and crying before hand when CCP didn't make more strong women in Eve (at say, oh, the time TEA was written)?

Why did Jamyl scare you? She barely did anything in TEA except cower within her own mind and beg big strong mens for help. Fuuuuuuck that. And Oritsuu was incompetent, at least the way she was portrayed in TEA. Now she might be scary, after the development she's had since then, but in TEA she gets her company stolen from under her by a fucking forklift operator, and evidently never saw it coming, and then just gives up. Fuuuuuuuck that. And yes, I agree, Eve has far too few strong female characters. Especially after you take a steaming crap on the few that are there. And I did complain. I wrote that review in July 2008.

As for what we find interesting, we can chalk that up to taste. I like ancient and (current) science defying mayhem. It goes to show that even IF humanity is 20,000 years advanced, we still aren't the top dogs, and never will be.

Except that CCP has been pushing the line that the player characters in Eve are the hottest thing since sliced bread since the dawn of time. To write a book where they are largely irrelevant (and to have the gall to call it The Empyrean Age of all things) is incredibly backwards.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I think the larger question you're missing, Anslo, is why did Jamyl need a Terran cannon to win the day? Would not coming back to lead the Empire's fleets to glorious victory through sheer will and force of presence not have been enough? Wouldn't it have more developed her character to have her pull a Zhukov and hold the Empire's line at massive cost, but ultimate victory? Perhaps I am spoiled/tilted somewhat by reading a lot of military science fiction by very good writers, but to me dragging a battered force back from the edge of defeat to a crushing victory is a much more filling, developed story than "by the way, you've got a doomcannon now. Have fun!"

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, I'm sure one can enjoy TEA as a read. Still, there are plot holes in there and breaks with the previeous PF of EVE. There are good reasons available for not liking it.

TonyG took the PF of EVE that took little suspension of disbelief as some grimdark sci-fi story and made an space opera full of soapy space magic that needs a lot of suspension of disbelief. If one likes the latter, good. If one doesn't and would have rather preferred to keep it in the style of the former, then one is disappointed: And rightly so as it was advertised as something that it isn't.

[Louella Dougans]

Svetlana, did I ever show you the list of character notes that mum drew up regarding the Empyrean Age ?

turns out it's still sitting on my desktop here. "Emyprean misogyny.txt"   

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Svetlana, did I ever show you the list of character notes that mum drew up regarding the Empyrean Age ?

turns out it's still sitting on my desktop here. "Emyprean misogyny.txt"   

No, I don't think you did, but it wasn't particularly hard to pick out. :/

[Louella Dougans]

Svetlana, did I ever show you the list of character notes that mum drew up regarding the Empyrean Age ?

turns out it's still sitting on my desktop here. "Emyprean misogyny.txt"   

No, I don't think you did, but it wasn't particularly hard to pick out. :/

Well, here you go:

[spoiler]

All Named female characters:

Tea (crew member on Retford) - infertile, gets yelled at repeatedly, gets severely injured while other crew members are unscathed. Other crew get capsuleer status, or a ship of their own, she gets fertility treatment. backstory has her as a victim of domestic violence, where she lost her unborn child.

Gable (medic on Lorado station) - repeatedly the target of harassment from Jonas, backstory has her victim of harassment at work, she turns to casual sex and drugs, etc.

Jamyl Sarum - Lol, well, she's a lost little girl without A Man to protect her.

Haatakan Oiritsuu (Kaalikiota CEO) - Ineffectual, submits easily to Tibus's schemes.

Mila Gariushi/Kenachi Hepimeki (Ishukone) - portrayed as being needy, easily scared, also dresses in outfit that "reveals cleavage".

Nilen Koina (caldari constructions director) - ineffectual, easily scared.

Ameliene (Elder agent) - basically, exists only to protect Keitan Yun. Has no personality. Gets beaten a few times.

Karin Midular (Republic Prime minister) - portrayed as whining, ineffectual, a moody girl that throws tantrums, is beaten and raped, then "learns her place" and is submissive thereafter.

Yana Marakova (Federation Navy) - capsuleer, is initially rather condescending towards Korvin the male Fed Navy pilot, she is podded, loses SP and is unable to fly, is submissive afterwards.

Camoul Hinda (court chamberlain advisor) - tells Karsoth he's screwing it all up, ends up beaten and turned into a drugged sex slave.

Ariel Orviegnoure (Fed Intel) - repeatedly interrupted, ineffective.

Ana Utulf (ammatar chief) - implied sexual harassment at hands of Amarr governor.

Grand admiral Kasora Neko (minmatar Fleet) - Ineffectual, unable to maintain any form of command over the fleet, ultimately told that her position is superceded by the Elders plans.

Chair Speaker Pauksuo (Concord) - Ineffectual, panicky, is shot by dreadnought.

non-named characters:

Satelles Girls whore - first introduction of a Gallente, is a large-breasted whore. (three of them)

Gallentean girl (prob. Satelles) - described as having, slender back muscles that merge into deliciously firm buttocks, toned legs, and a visage that would make any straight man yearn with lust, she is beaten to a pulp by Tibus Heth for being Gallentean. Tibus's reaction to this is "ewww, i touched a Gallente!"

Bisexual Blood Raider agent - talks dirty, likes sex, is kicked in the neck, dies.

unnamed prostitute on Lorado station - only exists to mention that Jonas likes oral sex, and was unsuccessful in obtaining such from Gable.

unnamed Gallentean women on Caldari Prime - out shopping for exotic underwear, hundreds/thousands of them are killed in the Caldari invasion.

unnamed slave girl - too slow to understand a minmatar soldiers instructions, shoots them in return for some Vitoc.

freighters with holds full of prostitutes.

various female receptionists, other staff members, etc. whenever notifying someone of things, are yelled at. They exist only to allow someone to say things like "silence, woman! I already know!"



Three Male characters, who the reader is supposed to dislike, all turn out to be Paedos & deviants

Karsoth - lol, just lol.
Tamo Heinulaila - is pistolwhipped, urinates on self.

Torkebaira Shutsu - tries to pleasure 3 girls at once, fails, ends up shooting self.

[/spoiler]

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Yeah, that's about the size of it. I think it give Karin Midular the short shrift though, since her last action in the book is basically to tell Shakor and the Elders to go fuck themselves. It's about the only time she shows some backbone and I like to think it's the character's metacommentary at being stuck in that book.