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[Jade Constantine]

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.

As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.

Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...

It's hard to not get a bit cynical.

And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.

Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.

Two out of three ooc female posters on the last page confirmed as "space lesbians" was my first thought I must admit

(A ratio which is not far from current portrayal of female archetypes in the RP community)

Seriously though, since I don't really criticise any consenting adults lifestyle choices or sexual pecadillos I think the whole "lumping In" thing goes over my head. I don't think people should be overtly sniffy about people playing with gender identity for serious psychosexual roleplay exploration(tm) or for general erotic titilation for that matter.

 Look at it this way, a couple of guys pretending to be ersatz space lesbians and sexing each other up on the internet and finding themselves getting off on the alternative gender roles are quite unlikely be marching around town centres with "death 2 queers" and "faggots burn In hell" placards come their weekend off.

In the grand scheme of things I think that's a more significant takeaway than concerns about fake space lesbians trespassing on the sacred aura of true space lesbians with their chintzy makeup, false lashes and exaggerated sultry walks. Homophobia kills people irl, however that curse is diminished has got to be worth considering in the light of pure pragmatic enlightened self interest.

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life transvestism for erotic activities? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

[Makkal]

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

'Trannies?' Seriously?

Transwomen are women. They are not a 'crass hyper sexualization.' Some of them might be highly sexual but what a woman chooses to do with her body and who she does it with isn't comparable to men role-playing as lesbians online.

That leaves drag queens, and drag typically involves camp, not getting off.

You're kind of grasping at straws here.

[Samira Kernher]

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

Wait... what?

I hope you're not trying to imply that real life transgendered people are "crass hyper sexualization of femininity". That's rather offensive, if so.

[Jade Constantine]

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

Wait... what?

I hope you're not trying to imply that real life transgendered people are "crass hyper sexualization of femininity". That's rather offensive, if so.

I am certainly saying particular feminine aspects can be viewed as hyper sexualised in the context of transgendered people of all kinds (if you are of a mind to criticise such things). I obviously am not of such a mind, as I would hope my opinions and general approach to individual sexual expression would have been adequately demonstrated by my posting on the subject.

What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.

But really, its just sex. Do what you please, and as long as it pleases you and your partner its no business of mine to criticise.

[Samira Kernher]

What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.

Then you're speaking of transvestites and "shemales" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".

[Creep]

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

Wait... what?

I hope you're not trying to imply that real life transgendered people are "crass hyper sexualization of femininity". That's rather offensive, if so.

What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.

But really, its just sex. Do what you please, and as long as it pleases you and your partner its no business of mine to criticise.

So, Drag Queens. And even the Queens aren't doing it just for the sex. It's an entire subculture, and not just a sexual subculture either.

Trangender people aren't in it for the sex. It's because at birth, the genetic tag that switches the [default] female development to male sexual characteristics didn't (or DID) get activated like it was supposed to. Male meat-computer in female meat-robot/female meat-computer in male-meat robot. Shit happens, and they correct it(given adequate funds).

[Jade Constantine]

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

'Trannies?' Seriously?

Transwomen are women. They are not a 'crass hyper sexualization.' Some of them might be highly sexual but what a woman chooses to do with her body and who she does it with isn't comparable to men role-playing as lesbians online.

That leaves drag queens, and drag typically involves camp, not getting off.

You're kind of grasping at straws here.

There may be some linguistic confusion here. In the UK, the term trannie can be shorthand for transvestite as well as transsexual (both pre and post op) - perhaps what you would see as a drag queen would be the tamer children's panto version of transvestism that is quite innocent, but full transvestism amongst consenting adults certainly moves into the realms of erotic encounters and as you so delicately term it "getting off".

As to the question of crass hypersexualisation, both you and the poster above misread the question I actually asked by changing the quotes around to simulate an offensive allusion ... please don't do it. I specifically addressed the correlation between real lesbians being offended by fake online lesbians portraying sexuality in a crass manner, and real lesbians (of whom I have many amongst my friends in Brighton) perhaps being offended at the crass hypersexualisation of feminine aspects on view amongst transvestites attending bars and clubs around my home town (some of which also happen to be amongst my friends).

I wondered aloud if you would be as offended by a pair of men dressed as women flirting at a dance club irl as you might be by a pair of men playing sexualised female characters in an online game?

[Creep]

Follow-up (because I've never asked any of my irl friends this and I'm genuinely curious): How about two actual women, who are straight, pretending to be lesbians to attract men(presumably in a club or bar)?

[Jade Constantine]

Follow-up (because I've never asked any of my irl friends this and I'm genuinely curious): How about two actual women, who are straight, pretending to be lesbians to attract men(presumably in a club or bar)?

My daughter and her best friend have done that fairly often, its also a pretty common get out of jail card when they decide the potential suitors are unsuitable "sorry but we're not actually into men" (smouldering glances across the table into each others eyes)

Of course I can't really lecture on the ethics of this stuff, some of the best nightclubs and bars in Brighton serve a fruity clientele and its often necessary to take an open minded male friend for appropriate camouflage (and cheap happy hour beverages).

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Look at it this way, a couple of guys pretending to be ersatz space lesbians and sexing each other up on the internet and finding themselves getting off on the alternative gender roles are quite unlikely be marching around town centres with "death 2 queers" and "faggots burn In hell" placards come their weekend off.

In the grand scheme of things I think that's a more significant takeaway than concerns about fake space lesbians trespassing on the sacred aura of true space lesbians with their chintzy makeup, false lashes and exaggerated sultry walks. Homophobia kills people irl, however that curse is diminished has got to be worth considering in the light of pure pragmatic enlightened self interest.

I've seen this idea thrown around a lot in regard to this topic, but it's a fallacy. Let me say, hopefully without offending any parties reading that fit the bill and do it well, that I have met some absolutely unambiguously sexist and homophobically hateful individuals who play "lesbian" characters in MMORPGS.

For example, there was an individual who I knew on WoW, god knows how many years ago, who played a bisexual (but realistically, only interested in females) night elf. He was relatively open about the fact that OOCly, he found lesbians to be perverted and self-deluded deviants, but his philosophy was that if playing one is fun, hey, nothing wrong with that, right? With one hand he would make a carnally driven farce out of something I considered very serious, and with the other he'd contribute to an overall hostile environment for me, personally.

Portraying something in roleplay doesn't at all imply acceptance or even tolerance.

And for the record, it's not extremists "marching around town centers" and cracking peoples heads open that cause me the most grief in day to day life by a long shot. It's the far greater amount of people contributing in a thousand small ways to the subtle culture of disrespect and passive hatred. Of which the person described above is certainly one.

So you'll forgive me if I don't feel much in the way of "englightened self interest" in being completely cool with the stuff, especially when it's an instance that effects me on an individual level.

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

I'm not sure what to say about this that others haven't already than:

1. I find the comparison between someone who is playing a character on a video game that they get up and walk away from every night to someone who is commiting completely to fundementally changing their identity to correct something that brings them considerable personal misery to be a bit ludicrous, especially since they are very rarely guilty of "crass hyper sexualisation".

2. Drag queens are something completely different and do, in some small ways and on rare occasions, offend me. But explaining that would be going into feminist stuff, and this isn't really the time or the place.

[Jade Constantine]

Look at it this way, a couple of guys pretending to be ersatz space lesbians and sexing each other up on the internet and finding themselves getting off on the alternative gender roles are quite unlikely be marching around town centres with "death 2 queers" and "faggots burn In hell" placards come their weekend off.

In the grand scheme of things I think that's a more significant takeaway than concerns about fake space lesbians trespassing on the sacred aura of true space lesbians with their chintzy makeup, false lashes and exaggerated sultry walks. Homophobia kills people irl, however that curse is diminished has got to be worth considering in the light of pure pragmatic enlightened self interest.

I've seen this idea thrown around a lot in regard to this topic, but it's a fallacy. Let me say, hopefully without offending any parties reading that fit the bill and do it well, that I have met some absolutely unambiguously sexist and homophobically hateful individuals who play "lesbian" characters in MMORPGS.

For example, there was an individual who I knew on WoW, god knows how many years ago, who played a bisexual (but realistically, only interested in females) night elf. He was relatively open about the fact that OOCly, he found lesbians to be perverted and self-deluded deviants, but his philosophy was that if playing one is fun, hey, nothing wrong with that, right? With one hand he would make a carnally driven farce out of something I considered very serious, and with the other he'd contribute to an overall hostile environment for me, personally.

Portraying something in roleplay doesn't at all imply acceptance or even tolerance.

And for the record, it's not extremists who around "marching around town centers" and cracking peoples heads open that cause me the most grief in day to day life by a long shot. It's the far greater amount of people contributing in a thousand small ways to the subtle culture of disrespect and passive hatred. Of which the person described above is certainly one.

So you'll forgive me if I don't feel much in the way of "englightened self interest" in being completely cool with the stuff, especially when it's an instance that effects me on an individual level.

For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?

I'm not sure what to say about this that others haven't already than:

1. I find the comparison between someone who is playing a character on a video game that they get up and walk away from every night to someone who is commiting completely to fundementally changing their identity to correct something that brings them considerable personal misery to be a bit ludicrous, especially since they are very rarely guilty of "crass hyper sexualisation".

Your example wow player sounds like an absolutely horrible person. I wouldn't give him the time of day. I am sure there are some similarly horrid people who play eve, but I am not sure the existence of such people means that he average space lesbian is similarly motivated.

On your latter point, transvestites actually do tend to dress normally as men during the day and go out to clubs dressed as hypersexualised women at night. Believe me, I have known quite a few!

Perhaps is best to agree we set aside transgendered people from the earlier question and concentrate purely on transvestites for the sake of a less emotionally charged discussion?

[Jade Constantine]

What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.

Then you're speaking of transvestites and "shemales" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".

You are right, I've edited the initial question to specifically address transvestites. Apologies for confusion caused.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Your example wow player sounds like an absolutely horrible person. I wouldn't give him the time of day. I am sure there are some similarly horrid people who play eve, but I am not sure the existence of such people means that he average space lesbian is similarly motivated.

Oh, no, my intention wasn't to say that they were. But you were saying that you couldn't understand why I feel discomfort being associated with many of the men playing lesbian characters on the basis that they're overall harmless to me and doing me a favour, in a roundabout sense.

My point was, they're often not. Because of people like that.

On your latter point, transvestites actually do tend to dress normally as men during the day and go out to clubs dressed as hypersexualised women at night. Believe me, I have known quite a few!

Perhaps is best to agree we set aside transgendered people from the earlier question and concentrate purely on transvestites for the sake of a less emotionally charged discussion?

Like I said, my opinions about transvestites and drag queens are a bit complicated and very case-by-case based. Much like my opinion about this topic. It's something I'd rather not derail a thread on an roleplaying forum for a spaceship game over.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.

Then you're speaking of transvestites and "shemales" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".

You are right, I've edited the initial question to specifically address transvestites. Apologies for confusion caused.

Incidentally Jade FYI. One transgendered person of my acquaintance uses the term trannie jokingly. However most that I have met regard it as in poor taste at best, and hate speech at worst. Just so you know for future reference.

[Jade Constantine]

What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.

Then you're speaking of transvestites and "shemales" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".

You are right, I've edited the initial question to specifically address transvestites. Apologies for confusion caused.

Incidentally Jade FYI. One transgendered person of my acquaintance uses the term trannie jokingly. However most that I have met regard it as in poor taste at best, and hate speech at worst. Just so you know for future reference.

People have different words that drive them nuts basically, I always feel like punching gamers that overuse the term "faggot" for example - but ultimately it comes down to cultural experience - people I've met around my home town wear the term trannie as a batch of countercultural pride alongside "queer, kink, perv" so as ever your mileage may vary. Most important not to assume that one's own experiences and peer preferences don't accidentally masquerade as universal censure - that would be silly.