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[Merdaneth]

So what if CCPs portrayal of a faction doesn't fit in with your own? What does it matter?

Just imagine yourself complaining IRL: 'I'm totally a patriot, but then our president goes off and says X, why does he have to reinforce the negative stereotypes that already exists'

You play the character you want to play, and if you are fed up with your faction, you leave.

By the way, for those who 'portay' their faction as X, I am more influenced by my vision of factions by your portrayal than any CCP lore, so please continue!

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, ...

on one side I understand the need that people come to see that not all Caldari are "jackbooted thugs" (though I don't see what's wrong with jackboots (; ). I sometimes have the same longing in regard to Amarr, as I put some effort in to fighting the view of Amarr as brainless, fanatic, nazi Space-Katholics. After all, per PF the Amarr are highly educated and not at all brainless or anti-science and all that shit one gets thrown at all day long.

In the end, though, I think one has to accept that some people just don't want to change their character's view. Sometimes, even, they have reason to change their character's views in the opposite direction and give him an even more uncompromising view of the faction that one tries to portray in a more balanced or even human and sympathetic way. It happens, inevitably and there is nothing one can do about it, because one can't control the (re-)actions of other people.

I think one shouldn't make ones motivation to play the game dependent on whether ones own faction is generally perceived in a good light. I rather aim for small things, if I convince a single non-Amarr char that 'not all Amarr are like that', that's already a huge success. If I am able to improve relations with one Caldari, I won't mind the one that is managing to interpret anything an Amarrian does as negative for the Caldari people and the universe at large. And I don't give much about how CCP portrays the Amarr as how that is received is anyhow another matter. Haters gonna hate.

Not worrying about the haters keeps the fun in the game.

[Merdaneth]

I think one shouldn't make ones motivation to play the game dependent on whether ones own faction is generally perceived in a good light. I rather aim for small things, if I convince a single non-Amarr char that 'not all Amarr are like that', that's already a huge success. If I am able to improve relations with one Caldari, I won't mind the one that is managing to interpret anything an Amarrian does as negative for the Caldari people and the universe at large. And I don't give much about how CCP portrays the Amarr as how that is received is anyhow another matter. Haters gonna hate.

Not worrying about the haters keeps the fun in the game.

I think this whole issue centers around the fact that most players give CCP Prime Fiction way, way too much weight and influence over their characters. Like CCP PF is a given. something which is absolutely true, cannot be question and is valid for an entire faction.

[Ollie]

I sometimes have the same longing in regard to Amarr, as I put some effort in to fighting the view of Amarr as brainless, fanatic, nazi Space-Katholics. After all, per PF the Amarr are highly educated and not at all brainless or anti-science and all that shit one gets thrown at all day long.

Absolutely. There are also Amarr surfer dudes on Sarum Prime as per PF. Well, there were before the Elder fleet came and razed them. So, you know, less nazi Space-Katholic and more of a Venice beach "We're reclaiming our waves, man" mindset.

No-one ever mentions the dead Amarr surfer dudes though.

[Vikarion]

You play the character you want to play, and if you are fed up with your faction, you leave.

The problem with this is as follows:

CCP: XZ faction is blue! They're really good at being blue! Sometimes they have some violet and teal, too. But, mostly? Blue!

Player: Oh, cool! I love blue. I'm gonna RP the shit out of this blueness! Go XZ!

CCP, a few months later: XZ faction is Red! They have always been red! Anyone who supports them loves Red! Also, they kill puppies.

Player:  *small but significant explosion*

Player 2: Well, if you hate Red so much, why don't you stop playing as them?

Player: 

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I think my problem comes down to the fact that I have invested a great deal of time (and I think that may be putting it lightly) in trying to come up with a relatively complex worldview for Svetlana and through that for what I think of as the average Caldari which makes them unique and interesting to play, and a jackbooted thug who fights to preserve a fascist regime that is evidently built on misery factories is not particularly interesting to me to play, nor does it make much sense. It's also galling that for a game which is supposedly all about its players, the RP community is the one facet where that does not seem to be the case, where CCP feels (or at the very least, has felt in the past; there has been a great deal of regime change recently) perfectly free to drastically change how the world works for them on a whim if it is more convenient than incorporating the work of players.

For me, whenever I play an RPG or whenever I run an RPG, the goal of that game is that each player should feel like her character is the hero (or at least, antihero) of her own story. This is part of the problem I have with the storyline being manhandled by GM PCs with fancy powers no one else can have and other deus ex machina bullshit, but it also means that I want a way to have my character feel heroic. Making the Caldari out to be jackbooted thugs might be okay in a game where everyone is playing Gallente crusaders for freedom, but in a game where players can be representatives of any number of factions (including entirely player-based entities), your storyline needs to give all of these characters a chance to feel like they have the opportunity to be heroic. They could also be villains, if they want -- your story needs to allow for that too, and Eve certainly allows for that, but in their desire to be grimdark they seem to have forgotten that shadow cannot exist without light.

[Desiderya]

That's where any MMORPG differs from standard tabletop. In a tabletop you've got the GM that tailors the world to your (group's) needs, including the possibility for actually being a hero.
In any MMORPG you've got a world that is either stagnant or slowly progressing - believe me when I'm saying that storywise, EVE has seen the most development both on big and small things any of 'my' MMORPGs had.

In short, in a MMORPG you're roleplaying Joe Random, and not 'The hero', anytime you interact with other players. Because if you'd want to take what the world gives you at face value you'd be amazed how often the damsel gets indeed captured and how often the world is indeed saved from [Evil Overlord]'s plan in the exact same manner. Sometimes you can even watch someone save the world - only to have you save it again!


Additionally EVE tries very hard to portray the grimdark here through offering loads of ambigous stuff on the empires. If you paint it "Caldari = Bad, Gallente = Heros" then that's your interpretation. Same with Amarr/Minmatar. They all have their dark sides and redeeming qualities. I do not see how the current (And by current we can basically say "Since TEA") situation of the Caldari does not allow for a massive amount of non-villainous stereotypes and tropes.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

What "good" reason do Caldari RPers have to support the Caldari State right now? It's certainly not under threat from the Gallente thanks to the retarded nature of factional warfare (where both sides have already "won" once) and CCP has basically had Heth running roughshod over any resistance to his brownshirts for five years. There's a reason why Svetlana has begun insulting the entire corporate leadership of the State, there's literally no one in the Caldari hierarchy worthy of respect at this point, especially now that the Navy has started to get Hethified, evidently.

[Desiderya]

What reason do you have to not support the Caldari State?
It's hardly a choice, no?
You don't have to like the leadership to fight for your compatriots and your State (nation, country).

I think you're downplaying the threat of 'real' war, too.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

What reason do you have to not support the Caldari State?
It's hardly a choice, no?
You don't have to like the leadership to fight for your compatriots and your State (nation, country).

I think you're downplaying the threat of 'real' war, too.

As I said, we already "won" the war once. What did it get us?

We already "lost" the war once. What did it lose us?

There's no reason to support the Caldari State because there's no one in the State worth supporting right now. They are either Space Nazis or lickspittles and cowards at this point, and there's been very little evidence of anything else.

[Desiderya]

There's no reason to support the Caldari State because there's no one in the State worth supporting right now. They are either Space Nazis or lickspittles and cowards at this point, and there's been very little evidence of anything else.

That's your opinion and I would politely disagree.
As a player I can understand a lot of the criticism but that still makes it - in my opinion and especially when keeping in mind how caldari are supposed to tick supporting the State ('the motherland') and agreeing with current (we're talking about a couple of years) leadership are two very separate things. At one point you're not going out to please Heth but you're going out because your own territory and your own people are at stake.

Yes, Faction warfare is a war of attrition and not one to conquer the opposing side completely, but we're talking about a game mechanic first and foremost, and an obvious proxy war second. Even in the proxy war there are lives lost, homes that are getting uprooted and profits that can be made for [insert corporation/subfaction], depending on how idealistic or mercenary style you want to see it.

Anyways, I'm not going to convince you since you've already made up your mind, likely years ago. Let's agree to disagree.

[ArtOfLight]

What "good" reason do Caldari RPers have to support the Caldari State right now? It's certainly not under threat from the Gallente thanks to the retarded nature of factional warfare (where both sides have already "won" once) and CCP has basically had Heth running roughshod over any resistance to his brownshirts for five years. There's a reason why Svetlana has begun insulting the entire corporate leadership of the State, there's literally no one in the Caldari hierarchy worthy of respect at this point, especially now that the Navy has started to get Hethified, evidently.

Malcolm fights for the State because working to keep the contested systems from constantly flipping hands helps develop security and infrastructure in those systems that benefit the planetside populations as well as the State as a whole. He also fights because he believes that if the border can be solidified against the invading Federation forces, the attention of the Caldari people can be turned inward and the most pressing "need" to keep Heth on the "throne" will be gone.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Malcolm fights for the State because working to keep the contested systems from constantly flipping hands helps develop security and infrastructure in those systems that benefit the planetside populations as well as the State as a whole. He also fights because he believes that if the border can be solidified against the invading Federation forces, the attention of the Caldari people can be turned inward and the most pressing "need" to keep Heth on the "throne" will be gone.

I can respect that, but we know that will never happen, OOC, and that is a considerable impediment to feeling invested in the outcome. I can understand that as a motivation, but I personally find it hard to get involved in a conflict I know has no end and in the meantime, any of my successes in that struggle seem to end up getting twisted into support for a storyline I hate and a regime my character cannot stand.

[ArtOfLight]

I suppose that's where I force myself to keep IC and OOC divided. Malcolm doesn't know his goals will never be realized, Malcolm doesn't know that everything he does is going to be attributed to Heth. He simply knows that he HAS to fight for what he believes in or he's worth nothing at all.

[Vikarion]

What reason do you have to not support the Caldari State?
It's hardly a choice, no?
You don't have to like the leadership to fight for your compatriots and your State (nation, country).

I think you're downplaying the threat of 'real' war, too.

As I said, we already "won" the war once. What did it get us?

We already "lost" the war once. What did it lose us?

Actually, CCP painted both of those as bad for the Caldari. When we took every system, we got painted as greedy (and very stupid and short-sighted) invaders and occupiers who lost all our ISK the instant the Gallente retook the systems. When the Gallente took all the systems, it was a straight up victory for them, and Heth started bombarding Caldari planets.

CCP's policy is "whatever happens, fuck the Caldari".