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Author Topic: Balancing player desires against character desires  (Read 6702 times)

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #30 on: 23 Feb 2013, 22:34 »

So, the question still remains:

What do you do when what your character would do, you find to be intensely boring and not worth paying $15/mo. for?
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Natalcya Katla

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #31 on: 23 Feb 2013, 22:38 »

Different characters for different things is my approach.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #32 on: 23 Feb 2013, 22:41 »

So, the question still remains:

What do you do when what your character would do, you find to be intensely boring and not worth paying $15/mo. for?

If the RP is good, the $15/mo is worth it.

Especially if you can just buy a PLEX.

Mining isn't exactly a very fun activity for me OOC, but I'm enjoying the RP.


The above post is sound, too.
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2013, 22:43 by Samira Kernher »
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Sepherim

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #33 on: 23 Feb 2013, 22:55 »

I think what works best is to find a point in between. And this depends a lot on the character design, even as it may evolve over time it is a rough template of what you can do with him. From then on, balancing RP with OOC is what keeps things going. Usually, I focus on the IC side of things, let Seph evolve and move. But sometimes, a little pushing has to be done, in order to keep things working and moving into what I like.

Oh, and fucking old-habits and old-Seph continue to introduce elements in Catillah that I hadn't thought about and make him evolve in strange ways... :S
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #34 on: 23 Feb 2013, 23:45 »

So, the question still remains:

What do you do when what your character would do, you find to be intensely boring and not worth paying $15/mo. for?

For "boring" you could substitute a number of alternative words that also mean "not fun".

It's a good question, and many of us grapple with it. It's complicated, too, because it's not a simple inverse correlation of immersion vs fun, but a complex interaction of gameplay, storytelling, community (positive and negative, and as a setting for gameplay and storytelling), consistency, consequences and player satisfaction.

I'll throw in an extra point that varies from player to player: consider how you respond longer term to IC choices made for OOC reasons. For some people and in some cases it's all fine and you incorporate that into your story. Other times you end up with a character who's doing something for no discernible reason, which can get hard to play.

Always remember that you don't have to play EVE. There is life outside the pod.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #35 on: 24 Feb 2013, 08:53 »

So, the question still remains:

What do you do when what your character would do, you find to be intensely boring and not worth paying $15/mo. for?

Quit playing, or spin my ship while doing something else.
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Vaun Erryk

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #36 on: 24 Feb 2013, 09:20 »

If the RP is good, the $15/mo is worth it.

Especially if you can just buy a PLEX.

That's very subjective. I was very much enjoying the RP, but the last time I was in-game, the precise reason I left is that the RP was the only thing I found fun. I didn't like feeling obligated to log in to continue accumulating ISK just so I could RP, and the idea of spending real currency on glorified IRC wasn't justifiable for me. Seconding Matariki's sentiments on that front.

My approach to Laria's problem is a bit brute force, but it has worked for me on the occasions I've encountered it myself: "Is the RP making the game more or less fun?" is the main question I asked myself. My logic is that roleplaying is meant to enrich playing the game rather than be a chore; if you'd much rather be doing something that your character isn't, then it's often possible to find a reasonably plausible way to drive them into that.

Issues arise if someone does this a lot and ends up bouncing between factions frequently, of course, but then that's another matter.
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Sepherim

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #37 on: 24 Feb 2013, 09:39 »

That's very subjective. I was very much enjoying the RP, but the last time I was in-game, the precise reason I left is that the RP was the only thing I found fun. I didn't like feeling obligated to log in to continue accumulating ISK just so I could RP, and the idea of spending real currency on glorified IRC wasn't justifiable for me. Seconding Matariki's sentiments on that front.

Yup, same happened to me three years ago, and I too ended up leaving EVE for the same reasons.

Quote
My approach to Laria's problem is a bit brute force, but it has worked for me on the occasions I've encountered it myself: "Is the RP making the game more or less fun?" is the main question I asked myself. My logic is that roleplaying is meant to enrich playing the game rather than be a chore; if you'd much rather be doing something that your character isn't, then it's often possible to find a reasonably plausible way to drive them into that.

Issues arise if someone does this a lot and ends up bouncing between factions frequently, of course, but then that's another matter.

Agreed completely no this too, there's a limit to how many deep changes a character can undergo in a given period of time without being seen as totally unreliable, unfocused, and probably even mad.
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Gottii

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #38 on: 24 Feb 2013, 16:53 »

I get nervous when Im playing with a character who obviously is making IC choices for OOC whims.  Makes the story hard to play, and makes it difficult to try OOC/IC distinctions.  There is a line, obviously, but wildly divergent, hard to justify choices for OOC reasons makes the game less fun, in my view at least, and makes me less likely to want to invest my IC time and narrative in that player or character.
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Sepherim

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #39 on: 25 Feb 2013, 09:02 »

Well, if it is done right, people shouldn't be aware of the OOC influence in the shaping of the personality ICly and how the character understands what happens. Of course, I agree that playing with someone who lets that show, breaks the inmersion, so it has to be done right.
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Makkal

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #40 on: 09 Jun 2013, 07:55 »

Hi,

This is one of those annoying "There is only Zuul" RPer-Type questions. How do you balance when you as a player want to do something that your character probably doesn't? When it's a big thing, particularly. How legitimate do you think it is to bend your character's actions towards your OOC wants, rather than allowing your play to follow your character's natural growth and development?

This one is a might struggle at the moment.   :ugh:

I designed Makkal to like what I like and her personality type is one that's easy to play with. The problem is that it's been a year since I created her and I'm a dilettante. I know that if I relax and give it a month or so, several of my 'issues' will work themselves out, but in the mean time, I'm constantly having to slap my hand away from my own PC. 

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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #41 on: 09 Jun 2013, 10:44 »

This happens to me all the freaking time.

Usually, it's Aria wanting to do something I just don't have time in my life for, but sometimes I just get bored doing what I'm doing. Most often I come up with some circumstance or excuse that plausibly explains the shift and go my merry way, then elaborate and expand as necessary. Over time, these incidents have become key parts of Aria's character-- her unpredictability, her contrariness, the "imp of the perverse" that drives her to abandon or sabotage so much of what she begins.

I've come to believe that a truly long-term character, especially one played semi-continuously over a period of years, should function as a sort of drop-cloth over the player's own character and inclinations. The character's motivations and beliefs may differ radically from the player's, but they must cover the same basic structure-- it is difficult to play a deeply wise character if you yourself lack common sense; it is difficult to play a steadfast one if you yourself are mercurial; it is difficult to play a deeply treacherous one if the very thought of betrayal fills you with shame.

Some of these are harder to overcome than others. I presently play an embittered Dresden Files character for a few hours every two weeks who has a gift for treachery. This is an experiment, though; sustained play is harder to pull off. No matter how much I admire Hellgremlin's maneuverings, I cannot quite bring myself to betray the people I play with constantly for months.

Aria's contrary streak stops at the level of my own somewhat changeable, but never treacherous, whimsy. And, for me to continue enjoying the character, that's probably how it should be. It is tiring to play someone whose desires do not, and cannot, align with your own.

(Important note: please bear in mind that these are the desires of a player in a game. Leslewellyn (player), IRL, is nothing like as ruthless as Aria (character), but does play games ruthlessly as long as this can be done without feeling like a jerk (so I still end up on the "Paragon" side of the Mass Effect alignment scale).)
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2013, 10:46 by Aria Jenneth »
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Corso.Verne

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #42 on: 09 Jun 2013, 13:39 »

My solution, take with a grain of salt.

Don't give into apathy. Don't play it safe. Stay uncomfortable as much as you possibly can.

I design characters that I can't relate to, and personally feel that the less I truly understand a character and their motives, the more fun they are to play. Writing is about having fun, capturing (or defying) realism, but most importantly, its about exploring the human condition, in all its many facets. Your number one duty from an academic perspective is to follow your consciousness wherever it may lead you, even if that might not necessarily be places you want to go. We all have darkness inside of us. Learning to diminish and control it comes from understanding, not ignorance. Of course, you also have duties to yourself and your others, and all these variables must be weighed equally during character development and RP.

I designed Z-ARK to be an oddity, confusing, annoying, infinitely wise and unimaginably naive. I have no idea what its like to be Z-ARK, I can only guess through metaphor and allegory. But he is relatable to me in very real ways. He is curious, he is non-partisan, he has faith in something more but not blind faith, and most importantly he fundamentally believes that being human is something to aspire to, not hate. Yes, he is a total Data ripoff. But cliches become cliches for a reason.

Felix, on the other hand, I can relate to in more ways but in so many circumstances I find his motivations to be utterly alien to me. Although I believe in a higher power, I am not religious. Felix, however, is fervent in his faith to the point of fanatical. And even though he is a heretic, a conscious choice to help me better understand his motivations and play him well, he does not second guess himself or question his resolve. He has many things I lack that I envy. He is brave, moral, fierce, and flawed. He is also a prisoner in a culture that is fundamentally at odds with his principles, and he is too much of a coward to fight back or reassess his values. This is perhaps the most relatable and alien part of his character, either and both because of the other.

Is boredom a risk? Always. Writing is all about taking risks. Not all of them pan out. Maybe Makkal will come to better appreciate her character in time, maybe she will scrap the concept. I hope, for all our sakes, for the former outcome. But her problem is a very real one and not uncommon in writers' circles. At what point is it appropriate, if ever, to violate the integrity of your character dedication for the sake of fun or personal gain?

There's no right or wrong answer, obviously, but here is what has worked for me. Fuck complacency. Is your character boring you? Write a RP or short story about something extremely important occuring in their life that becomes integral to their storyline. This can be traumatic or miraculous, subtle or grandiose. Whatever it takes to get you back in a place where you feel as if you can do your character the best service possible.

This might be a semantic difference of opinion, but your capacity for writing a well-rounded, human character is always a priority, even over fun. That may seem counter-intuitive or just plain wrong, but here's a thought experiment. You are RPing a character that you love and everyone else despises. And not just their personality, everything about them and the way that you RP them. Is that fun for the community? Is that what is best? How long do you think you'll have fun before everyone just ignores you, or kicks you from the channel?

Here's a particularly relevant example. When I first debuted Z-ARK in Summit, the response was overwhelmingly critical. Many experienced RPers warned me that Z-ARK's uniquely mechanical way of interaction could be intimidating for many people to interact with on a level that was true to their characters. Some people flat out told me he was annoying and that their character would just ignore him. That's okay, I can take the heat.

So I had a choice: scrap Z-ARK completely, or tweak his personality in subtle enough ways to make him both enjoyable to write and enjoyable to interact with. Obviously I'm not quite there yet, but I have a specific flashpoint in mind to make that problem go away for the most part, just waiting for the right time. Whatever that is.

Writing is art. I think we're all in agreement here, so maybe I'm preaching to the choir, but throughout the history of literature it has been relegated to pulp fair and written off as a basic comfort of the proletariat. If you disagree, ask yourself why there are no creative writing programs in most Fine Art colleges.

Even the term "novel", though it has grown to mean something so much more both culturally and artistically, at first meant how it sounds. It was a derogatory term, meant to belittle the art form. Good for some cheap laughs and maybe a nice cry, but otherwise an utterly novel experience. These are the same people who believed the poetic epic was the highest form of writing and could never be supplanted. How many epics do you see getting published these days?

Above all else, hold no fear of change. Stability is a writer's worst enemy. I know the popular opinion is that writers live in abject poverty and are forced to struggle through a society that cares nothing for them, and that is true, but do not mistake that for the only reason.

The best artists have a high probability of being the tortured ones. There are always outliers, but the fact is that poverty and failure lead to a rapidly changing life, from circumstances to wealth to friends to beliefs. It is in this state that some of the best art in the history of the world has been crafted, it is in this chaos that we thrive as prosaic composers.

This is true, both for us, and for our characters. But remember, everything in moderation. Even tears. Especially tears.
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2013, 16:19 by Z-ARK »
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #43 on: 09 Jun 2013, 16:51 »

Z-ARK:

Without entirely disagreeing, I'd analogize a long-term RPG character more to a set of tools than to a work of art itself.

The character's story, the character's life-path, is more the "art." Understanding the character allows us to chart that path with that much more precision. Being comfortable with the character allows us the energy to continue the path that much longer.
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Lasairiona

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Re: Balancing player desires against character desires
« Reply #44 on: 09 Jun 2013, 17:40 »

I largely ignore what lasa does ooc unless directly asked ic. Two different things IMO.
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