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[Lyn Farel]

I think we would have had less issues with these deus ex machinas if they were introduced in more subtle and realistic settings like the illuminati in Deus Ex or whatever.

The broker works well in Mass Effect, which is a space op saga with villains, heroes, and epicness ala StarWars.

It works less well in complicated grim and grey, more realistic settings like Eve. It does not fit very well and leaves a feeling of awkwardness, like if you were introducing Palpatine on the Amarr throne. OMG the broker is behind it all.

Edit ; add to that the broker is not a very deep and original creation and well... It does not make the concept attractive imo.

[Desiderya]

I do think the ancient races and that material has a lot of potential. Although I question whether Jamyl being kind of possessed was necessary in a pure Sci-Fi (as opposed to, say, shadowrun) setting.

On the topic of the broker: It's not mystery, because no one save one living NPC knows of his existance and involvement. He wanted Insorum and instead of sneaking into Otro's sekrit facilities with his omnipotent deus ex machina magic it's somewhat easier to toss two empires into a war to ask Otro nicely if he wants to give it to him on the brink of (Malkalen) desaster. After this has obviously failed I don't really see additional motivation to sabotage tripwire for Heth. But vOv.

It's not the sekrit (capsuleer) Illuminati pulling strings, it's some random dude that somehow makes it so that other things can happen in the universe and then disappears again.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

You know why Game of Thrones is such a good book?  Because the badguys win.  Heth is a horrible person but he's not a bad character.  (Poorly written in some cases.)  Conflict is needed for any good story.  Heth has been good for Caldari RP, overall.

No, wrong. Heth has been TERRIBLE for Caldari RP.

First off, 'Caldari RP' is the players who engage in it. When the whole thing with Heth started plenty of State RP'ers up and left, either quit RP'ing, changed their RP aims or quit the game. That was directly bad.

Secondly Heth introduced a very un-Caldari concept to Caldari RP that went right in the face of what PF had established as 'Caldari like' for so long. Back when we had no Emperor, Prime Minister Midular and President Fouritain, the State enjoyed a unique edge by being directly led by a council of CEO's for the corporations. It helped reinforce the idea that the State was not really that much of a "State" but more a confederation of 8 massive corporations and the 8 CEO's who ran them were directly in charge, with a few collective entities under their control that they all assist with, like the Navy. The Republican Prime Minister had her council of Tribal leaders and representatives, the Federation's President had the Senate and back before Doriam was offed there was the Council of Heirs that directly ruled in the Emperor's name. The Caldari were the only ones not to have a single figurehead to look to BACKED by a council type organ, the Council type organ WAS DIRECTLY IN CHARGE.

In short, Heth simplified the State in a major, and very un-Caldari way. And he did not even do a good job at it - his involvement turned a morally-grey faction with debt and nuances into a single-minded corporate dictatorship that got their simple, blacker shades from super-racism, starting a war out of hatred and generally just converting that State into this would-be arc-typical "bad guy" faction. It capitalized on amplifying all the negative traits the State possessed to make them 'darker' and more 'bad'.

And EVE is not about Good VS Bad. (Federation/Republic VS State/Empire) It's about Grey and Grey vs Grey and Grey, all with slightly different shades and plenty of vibrant back-story, and this is what people like Tony G seemed never to understand.

Honestly, if Heth is removed and some of that "Caldari like" essence is restored to the State I'll be very happy, very happy.

The worst part about Heth is that his introduction made no sense whatsoever and made everyone in KK corporate management look like fucking idiots. I have already ranted about this enough, but if Heth had been a corporate financier who seized control of KK through a hostile takeover or whatever, it would have been far less objectionable to me. That fact that TEA made the Caldari megacorps look like cut-rate Captain Planet villains with factories that were seemed to be incompetently built and run and whose sole product appeared to be human misery is what made Heth most objectionable to me.

Even if that had happened, though, Heth's introduction still turns a dynamic and internally conflicted government into a fascist monolith, which is extremely uninteresting to me as a Caldari RPer. Part of the reason I was attracted to the Caldari in the first place is because the Caldari government reminded me so much of the Corporate Court and the megacorporations in Shadowrun. Instead, after TEA, you had everyone evidently just giving Heth control of the State because...well, I'm still not sure why the hell they did, considering he has no acknowledged experience at anything other than working a factory line, when up until then the entire purpose of the weak Caldari government was to ensure the that no megacorporation could get one up on the others.

So if he gets torn down and the status quo is restored (seeing Oiritsuu punch his ticket would be quite nice for me, as someone who has gotten very tired of the way powerful female characters have been handled in the CCP fiction historically), and the megas go back to not trusting each other only slightly less than they trust non-Caldari I will be quite happy.

And the Caldari megacorporations have never been "good guys." The liberals might get a reputation for being slightly less "bad," but they still play the same games as the rest, just like Ares might be seen as the "good guys" in Shadowrun. They'll still fuck their competitors over for an extra ISK. On the other hand, the Caldari did used to have ideals that I was happy to promote and a reason for me (as Svetlana) to extol the virtues of the Caldari system, which promptly flew out the window when shit happened that made no fucking sense.

I have always said that all four empires are supposed to be examples of utopic societies that fell short -- Caldari are the meritocratic, libertarian, technocratic, free market utopia that became a paranoid, corporatist state controlled by the uppermost members of society. The "ideal" of what the Caldari State was supposed to be is what motivated a lot of Caldari RPers, I think, and when it became clear that CCP felt like that wasn't what the Caldari were at least pretending to aspire to, when they became fascist, hatemongering idiots who are just slavering for a change to rip the Gallente apart, I lost interest. I don't want to play a cardboard cutout.

Also, 15% of the Caldari State is soldiers now? Don't get me started on why that shit makes no sense and makes me angry.

[Desiderya]

There's that word again. Libertarian?
I cannot align this word with the mere description "Corporate Dictatorship" given on the caldari - and this was prior to Heth.

[orange]

There's that word again. Libertarian?
I cannot align this word with the mere description "Corporate Dictatorship" given on the caldari - and this was prior to Heth.

In theory (ie in a utopia), you can have corporate dictatorships in a libertarian society since association with a particular corporation/company/organization/etc is voluntary action for all parties involved.  The challenge is that in an advanced, information age society (like our own) or in a Sci-Fi space setting, it can be extremely challenging to not become beholden to one corporation or another.   We may choose our corporate fiefdoms, but if we do not enter into the contract we simply will not have access to the service they provide.   The barriers to the little guy to say "fuck you, I don't need you!  I am going to leave and go settle somewhere you don't have control and live there!" are much higher.

In our modern age, the discussion might be between choosing whether to go with an Apple-controlled tech ecosystem or a Google-controlled tech ecosystem.  These competitors do not necessarily need to produce compatible services.  You can apply this to a myriad of industries.

A Sci-Fi setting, like Shadowrun and Eve (Federation-State bloc) allows us to explore various aspects this taken to extremes.  I seem to recall a conversation (I think IC) in which a member of Star Fraction (I think it was Jade) agreed that of the ideals, the State's system was the closest to what they would pursue, but fell horribly short.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

There's that word again. Libertarian?
I cannot align this word with the mere description "Corporate Dictatorship" given on the caldari - and this was prior to Heth.

Dex sums it up quite nicely. At least in theory, the State government is extremely hands off when it comes to the individual citizen. In practice, the corporations have almost complete control because in order to do anything you have to play by their rules because they own everything. But the State government doesn't make it illegal for you to say whatever you want, or build up your own private army, or print your own currency...it's just that in practice, the only people who can really do that are the upper levels of the corporate oligarchy, not because it's against the law, but because only the people who run the corporations have the financial wherewithall to do so. The State outlaws slavery because it takes away your rights...but signing your rights away in a contract is perfectly valid. It was your free will, after all...nevermind the fact that you probably would starve to death in many cases if you didn't.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

You're forgetting the power of societal collectivism of thought. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting a worker from adopting the Amarr religion and yet it would be social suicide to do so.

Such a worker, whether a Janitor or an Executive, would find themselves socially ostracised and forced from their position in society. The Executive's extra money wouldn't help them, because they would be targetted and brought down by a consortium of their peers and immediate subordinates.

[Lyn Farel]

There is a huge dichotomy towards the libertarian aspect of the Caldari. Your points make it very valid, but also when one considers that libertarianism is also the systematic denial of any involvement of the state and the law in individual lifes... It fits well for the megas, but less for their citizens.

[Desiderya]

The State has the potential of going all big brother on their citizens ( or rather, the megacorporations have this for their employees ). It's influencing its citizens heavily and there are mechanisms of control that aren't very libertarian. You get paid in corporate scrip, you are very likely encouraged to stay brand loyal and not just live in [megacorp] living quarters but also buy products by the corporation in question.
Switching megacorporate affiliation isn't as easy as you make it sound. Loyality to the employer is encouraged, demanded and extremely common. So going against this is naturally raising red flags. The recent "demographics" article has kind of confirmed this.

To me it looks like the State has all the tools necessary to excert massive control but it doesn't need to use them in most occasions due to the way the caldari people are ticking. After all, the system wasn't forced onto them but more or less chosen and adopted to their needs and preferences. You might want to phrase it as "benevolent dictatorship".

[orange]

There is a huge dichotomy towards the libertarian aspect of the Caldari. Your points make it very valid, but also when one considers that libertarianism is also the systematic denial of any involvement of the state and the law in individual lifes... It fits well for the megas, but less for their citizens.

When a denizen of the State is without a corporation, whose laws (or more appropriately rules & regulations) do they fall under?

I don't think the dichotomy is there, but perceived to be there.  When you sign-up to work for a corporation, you put yourself (and your family) in the very rigid environment.

The Caldari State remember is nothing more than the banding together of a group of rebelling megacorporations with a common cultural heritage against an overbearing "foreign" government.

The State has the potential of going all big brother on their citizens ( or rather, the megacorporations have this for their employees ). It's influencing its citizens heavily and there are mechanisms of control that aren't very libertarian. You get paid in corporate scrip, you are very likely encouraged to stay brand loyal and not just live in [megacorp] living quarters but also buy products by the corporation in question.
Switching megacorporate affiliation isn't as easy as you make it sound. Loyality to the employer is encouraged, demanded and extremely common. So going against this is naturally raising red flags. The recent "demographics" article has kind of confirmed this.

I don't think we tried to make it sound easy to move between megacorporations.

To me it looks like the State has all the tools necessary to exert massive control but it doesn't need to use them in most occasions due to the way the caldari people are ticking. After all, the system wasn't forced onto them but more or less chosen and adopted to their needs and preferences. You might want to phrase it as "benevolent dictatorship".

I would counter that the megacorporations already exert massive control and the people don't notice.

[Lyn Farel]

A libertarian wouldnt put himself in such an environnement to my eyes. But I may be very foreign to the concept of libertarianism...

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Really? I think the Caldari State is pretty much a taken-to-the-extreme example of what happens if you get rid of almost all government regulation. No one is forced to work for a corporation, you have every right not to sign that employment contract. The fact that you will have a very hard time of it if you don't isn't the government's problem, it's yours.

In practice, the Caldari State is definitely not a libertarian utopia, but there's a reason that "utopia" means "no place."

[Desiderya]

@Orange
These two points are exactly why libertarianism doesn't seem to fit in my interpretation. It can be argued that the 'state' (as in the concept of a state) doesn't have much of an impact on the megacorporations - but in the end, the megacorporations kind of are the state, and they do have a lot of impact.
It goes that far that I assume not being a subsidiary of the megacorporations puts you in a pretty tough place when you're attempting to start your own business.

[orange]

That is the point.

It illustrates a danger of a libertarian system; a potential end-result is a situation like the State, where powerful corporate entities control almost everything.  The lack of a government independent from the employers means the employees can be put in a difficult position with very little real mobility except for a small segment of society.

The second group includes those who've found themselves moving between two or three different corporations and who have in the process come to consider how thoroughly indoctrinated the average employee is. These individuals end up doing very well in non-standard careers or in unlikely places within the corporate structure, united solely by their lack of adherence to the standard caste ladder.

[Desiderya]

I would agree, but the State did not gravitate towards a corporate controlled system, the modern State was founded based on it.
You make it sound as if the society was intending a libertarian system that grimdarked itself into the current situation over time.