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That the war between Electus Matari and PIE Inc started when -EM- pilots destroyed a slaver vessel in The Bleak Lands?

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Author Topic: The economic inefficiency of slavery  (Read 9657 times)

Ciarente

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #60 on: 20 Feb 2013, 20:07 »

Since the article 'The Economics of Slavery in the Ante Bellum South' by  Conrad & Meyer and especially the book 'Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Negro Slavery.' by Fogel & Engerman,

I'm not going to attempt to summarize the extremely long debate that has been running since Conrad and Meyer published in 1958 and Fogel and Engermen in 1974. Suffice it to say that there have been numerous closely argued and carefully documented articles demonstrating that both cherry-picked atypical circumstances and made errors in their interpretation of the data.

As for there being conditions under which slavery is economically efficient, as I said there are 'certain very limited exceptions'. These involve the absence of non-slave labor and the absence of any way to induce or acquire non-slave labor.  The simplicity of work has not been found to be a significant factor in increasing the efficiency of production through slave, rather than free, labor. The degree to which work shortens life-span has been found to be a factor, in that it ties in to the ability of employers to attract non-slave labor (in the Caribbean, for example, production of tobacco was mostly done by free labor, but when the economies of that area converted to largely sugar production, the intolerable working conditions and high death rates meant free workers would not undertake it. Sugar thus could not have been produced in these areas without slave labor, making slavery an 'economically efficient' choice). 

This was the situation in the very early years of the colonization of what is now the USA, for example, and it made slavery a rational economic decision for a short period. Ironically, the agricultural fertility of the southern states enabled land owners there to outbid their northern neighbors for slaves, which is why slavery was geographically concentrated in the USA. After a decade or so, when immigration and then natural population increase caught up with labor demand, slavery ceased to be an efficient mode of production, leaving the southern landowners stuck with the sunk costs of a less efficient labor force they could not fire, lay off seasonally, or even free (it was illegal to free slaves in many slave states).  Also ironically, the expansion of publicly expressed anti-slavery sentiments in non-slave-economies such as the northern parts of the USA and England post-dates the demographic and economic shifts that made slavery obsolete as an economically rational choice.  Tracking public (and private, through correspondence) comments about slavery in places such as New Hampshire, for example, shows a transition over several decades from "I would use slaves if those damn southerns didn't buy them all at prices I can't afford" to "I would use slaves if it made sense but free labor means I make more money" to "Slavery is bad". 

 The kindest interpretation is to suggest that the alleviation of urgent economic pressures freed people to more broadly consider the social and humanitarian implications of slavery; less kind, one could suggest that opposition to slavery was an opportunistic, 'making a virtue of economic reality' matter. I also wonder, although I am not aware of any study that explores it, how much northern antipathy to southern slavery had roots in the early colonial resentment at being deprived of access to what was at the time a scarce labor source.

I also note that there is little good data on the economic efficiency/ inefficiency of slavery in Classical times, in part because it is very difficult to find comparative economies in which one utilized slave labor and the other free.  One might hypothesize that expansionist states such as the Romans found themselves, at least in early decades, comparatively short of labor, and the use of slaves freed up Roman citizens to undertake military and political service, thus enabling the continued expansion of Rome and, in that sense at least, 'efficient', regardless of the questions of whether or not actual production would have yielded greater output or economic growth would have been quicker using free labor.

This of course raises the question of how different societies see 'the economy' and 'efficiency'. We have not, in this discussion, really touched on the idea that 'the economy' is not a purely factual descriptive term but a value-laden one that includes or excludes different kinds of production and value creation depending on social values - for example, house work, child rearing, and other caring work has only recently been included by some countries in their assessment.  A society's own view of the efficiency of its economy would be affected by, not only its view on what the economy is for, but also what the economy is.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #61 on: 20 Feb 2013, 21:10 »

I didn't say that the texts I cited are particularly good, I merely observed apparently since their times and up to recent articles from 2012 economists seem to debate when exactly slavery is and/or was efficient and that this debate didn't quite look like a consensus, like, say, is reached in regard to whether organic molecules can be synthesized from inorganic matter. The opinion seems to lean towards saying that slavery is in general inefficient compared to a 'free-labor' economy, but then I'd guess that there is some inevitable research bias at work there, too.

Also, I can imagine quite a lot of circumstances under which those 'certain very limited exceptions' are quite widespread. Also, the idea that if the circumstances change so that slavery gets inefficient means that people will 'make a virtue out of economic necessity' doesn't seem convincing to me. Why should those people - that know that there are circumstances under which slavery is economically efficient - not say "well, we should keep that way open, just in case"? To make the decision against keeping that proverbial foot in the door is an ethical decision. I think that the 'kinder' interpretation is the proper interpretation in this case.

Also, if one follows the idea that people always prefer to do what is economically efficient (as indicated by the not so kind interpretation at least), that would mean that we have reason to assume that all instances of slavery are, by virtue of that, in some way 'economically efficient' as otherwise slavery wouldn't be practiced - or at least not to the extents we know about historically.

As to the question of what we mean by 'economy' and 'efficiency': It seems to me that this only means that it's harder to rule out slavery as efficient, as one could argue that there are ways to reasonably understand 'economy' and 'efficiency' in ways that open up for more cases of economically efficient slavery. By the way the insight that 'economy' and 'efficiency' are value laden terms should make one suspect that in modern society, which abhors slavery and praises economic efficiency, those terms are understood in a way that is biased towards defining 'slavery', 'economy' and 'efficiency' in a way that collides with understanding slavery as economically efficient. That ties in with said research bias. It might also explain why some cases of coerced labor in modern societies aren't understood as 'slavery', while they clearly were in e.g. ancient times.

In conclusion, I still don't see a consensus about this among researchers into this topic.
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #62 on: 22 Feb 2013, 22:34 »

The major reasons I see the Caldari thinking slavery is a bad idea are:

  • Slaves are not particularly good for things other than physical labor tasks, mostly because it's hard to motivate a slave as easily as you can a normal employee, and poorly motivated employees do not perform as well when it comes to more developed economies. How many First World economies in today's world have slavery (China is not First World)?
  • There is a lot of overhead involved in keeping slaves -- they are not "free" labor. You still have to pay a lot of money for security and to deal with inevitable slave rebellions (that will cost you a lot). It is probably cheaper to pay them a marginal wage and use propaganda and marketing to keep them in line.
  • Automation is generally much cheaper than slave labor for repetitive tasks, and it's much better for handling precision tasks as well (robots don't screw up because they are pissed at their masters or because they can't be bothered to care). The Caldari system, with giant megacorporations, also minimizes the risk of sinking capital costs because the cost is "socialized" -- one factory being written off is less of an issue for a megacorporation than for an entrepreneur.
  • The Caldari have a lot of cultural baggage and feel as if they were taken advantage of by the Federation for a long time, which contributes to a feeling of sanctity in the self as a paramount cultural value; this makes the Caldari extremely biased against slavery.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #63 on: 23 Feb 2013, 04:57 »

The major reasons I see the Caldari thinking slavery is a bad idea are:

  • Slaves are not particularly good for things other than physical labor tasks, mostly because it's hard to motivate a slave as easily as you can a normal employee, and poorly motivated employees do not perform as well when it comes to more developed economies. How many First World economies in today's world have slavery (China is not First World)?
  • There is a lot of overhead involved in keeping slaves -- they are not "free" labor. You still have to pay a lot of money for security and to deal with inevitable slave rebellions (that will cost you a lot). It is probably cheaper to pay them a marginal wage and use propaganda and marketing to keep them in line.
  • Automation is generally much cheaper than slave labor for repetitive tasks, and it's much better for handling precision tasks as well (robots don't screw up because they are pissed at their masters or because they can't be bothered to care). The Caldari system, with giant megacorporations, also minimizes the risk of sinking capital costs because the cost is "socialized" -- one factory being written off is less of an issue for a megacorporation than for an entrepreneur.
  • The Caldari have a lot of cultural baggage and feel as if they were taken advantage of by the Federation for a long time, which contributes to a feeling of sanctity in the self as a paramount cultural value; this makes the Caldari extremely biased against slavery.

Well as much as the first points can be valid for a Caldari (though I am not sure myself that they really think that way but that may be my PF interpretation), I disagree with the fact that the Caldari are biased against slavery due to their past with the gallente. They have never been slaves of any sort and just disagreed with the system they were part of. It is even stated that you can't fint in New Eden a culture with a more neutral stance towards slavery. It is clearly stated that slavery is completely alien to them since they have never even imagined it before meeting with the Amarr.

It is also said that they find it inefficient from their point of view (with all the various good points brought above to explain why), so they do not see the point to change their economy to use it.

Also, why China would not be first world economy ? Depends on the definition I guess. Not really sure what China has to do with that - as far as I know they do not practice slavery, merely dubious labor conditions akin to Caldari lowest classes - but if your only aim is GDP, then China is first world economy.

From a purely practical megacorporation point of view, GDP would probably be one of the main goals. I am not sure that their administrative pannel really care for the conditions of their base worker since they have all the corporate rights on their lives, as long as they remain productive. If they have the second highest living standard that's probably due to the middle to upper classes that have actually earned their salary and position through meritocracy, nepotism, or whatever works in that kind of social ladder.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #64 on: 23 Feb 2013, 05:49 »

<snip>
Also, why China would not be first world economy ? Depends on the definition I guess. Not really sure what China has to do with that - as far as I know they do not practice slavery, merely dubious labor conditions akin to Caldari lowest classes - but if your only aim is GDP, then China is first world economy.
<snip>

Unless I am mistaken I think what is being referenced here is the Chinese habit of using prisoner labour. This a large part of why the Chinese military actually makes a profit if I am remembering correctly.
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #65 on: 23 Feb 2013, 09:39 »

China is also a country where 90% of the country is still living in abject poverty, where farming and manufacturing are largely done with manual labor. Its GDP is high, but that's largely because it has a fifth of the world's population. Per capita, China's GDP ranks somewhere around 95th, below countries like Brazil and Turkmenistan.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: The economic inefficiency of slavery
« Reply #66 on: 24 Feb 2013, 15:13 »

<snip>
Also, why China would not be first world economy ? Depends on the definition I guess. Not really sure what China has to do with that - as far as I know they do not practice slavery, merely dubious labor conditions akin to Caldari lowest classes - but if your only aim is GDP, then China is first world economy.
<snip>

Unless I am mistaken I think what is being referenced here is the Chinese habit of using prisoner labour. This a large part of why the Chinese military actually makes a profit if I am remembering correctly.

Unless I'm mistaken the habit of using prisoner labour is not uncommon in 1st world states like the US either.

The World Bank gives that 14% of the people in Chine are living in poverty by international standards - by national standards only 4% do so and they have a trend towards fewer and fewer people living in poverty.
The US census bureau's last report gives that 15% of the US citizens live under the poverty threshold by national standards. The trend is towards more poor people, by the way.

So, really I don't see that China compares that bad with some of the western countries.
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