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[Lyn Farel]

Here we go again.

What the hell ? How is that saying you are doing it wrong ? Can't you understand that as a personnal feedback from someone seeing a culture he knows well being emulated by strangers ?

I have said the exact same thing here and there when it comes to Eve RPers trying to emulate french based RP for gallente stuff. It makes me often smile since it is clumsy from times to times. There is a gap before telling them they are doing it wrong...

Also, 'with amusement' does not equal to 'with condescension'.

I think you are reading imaginary things in what people actually post.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Do you see a pattern?

I see a pattern. 

[Jekaterine]

I did not mod this but let me again point to the The FAQ.
I see this as rather condescending and "Urdoinitrong" myself.
Either way it's not really positive nor a post that would be a continuation or a starting point for fruitful discussion. It's barely on topic when it comes to a topic on a language.

On top of this I don't think that the defense of "A is X therefore A is an authority on X and should be able to pass judgement on it when it's done by Y. A should also be deferred to in all matters X" holds any water.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, allow me to disagree.

Aside from the fact that you might find it condescending or "Urdoingitrong", it can actually contribute to the discussion. To me it warns people on the actual dangers of copying too much of a RL influence for RP purposes. Especially when you are not an authority on the matter, since it can make it a little amusing/ludicrous.

That is exactly why I am in the same kind of situation when I see lolfrench gallente. I have nothing against it, mind, you, and as I said above it mostly makes me smile from times to times, and as long as it contributes to enrich RP, I am all for it. But in any case I respectfully disagree on the fact that it can not be a starting point for a fruitful discussion.

Also, being in the same case than him, I can not help but feel directly targeted by that kind of discriminating moderation when mods start to consider that your feedback from your own experience, and not authority on the matter, starts to be considered as condescending or whatever else. 

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Napaani isn't asian. Most of it is sourced from Finnish, if anything.

And if you didn't read Davlos' post as condescending then maybe I need to borrow your eyes, because it came off as smug and patronising to me. Like  me saying that, as an Englishman, when I see someone who isn't an Englishman using English I see it as a bunch of foreigners trying to be English and not quite succeding at it.

[Desiderya]

Mh,
I think we need to analyze that a bit. The underlying point he's trying to make is not invalid. In a discussion about 'caldari culture is played as fake japanese.' the statement would be on topic, valid and maybe even okay from the wording - although it still has that urdoingitwrong vibe.

The thread where it was posted concerned the language and was revived to discuss a question on the language, which is very much within the scope of the thread. The statement in there was neither on topic nor phrased neutral nor constructive. That aside, personally I fail to see how using some bits and bobs of a language ( especially since it is essentially a mixup of finnish and japanese or asian elements ) counts as "trying to play asians" and, furthermore, "failing at it.".

[BloodBird]

Isis ' post was modded because said player felt the need to work in a generalized insult towards a lot of people in it. Was it subtle? Yeah, but it was there.

Davlos was also modded because he essentially said that anyone not asian making up an even remotely asian-sounding name amuses him because of their apparent weeaboo status, "trying to be asian but failing at it."

It may have been a simple and innocent opinion regarding the work of others, but it was also essentially "Your doing it wrong" by different wording, and the forum rules here frown on that, hence, the modding.

[orange]

Ok, question for the mods.

I start a thread that essentially posses the question:

I think am doing this wrong, can someone with background/expertise in the area help me improve?

And a person who claiming to have expertise in the area says:

You are doing it wrong, based on my background/expertise. I think it would be more appropriate for the you to follow this path vs that path, etc.

Is the crucial part of the respondents post then that they provided feedback beyond "urdoinitwrong!" and provided a more constructive response?  Or is the entirely on-topic, useful post breaking the rules of the board?

[Ciarente]

Ok, question for the mods.

I start a thread that essentially posses the question:

I think am doing this wrong, can someone with background/expertise in the area help me improve?

And a person who claiming to have expertise in the area says:

You are doing it wrong, based on my background/expertise. I think it would be more appropriate for the you to follow this path vs that path, etc.

Is the crucial part of the respondents post then that they provided feedback beyond "urdoinitwrong!" and provided a more constructive response?  Or is the entirely on-topic, useful post breaking the rules of the board?

It's not possible, and I won't attempt, to provide predictions of future moderation of any and all posts in a hypothetical thread.  In general, posts which respect other players, do not abuse or insult them, and engage constructively in the debate would not be modded, especially if solicited.

In this hypothetical 'am I doing it wrong' thread, the example you give would be unlikely to be moderated. However, a response such as "Yes, you're failing hard." would attract the moderator's attention, as would something like "You're doing it wrong, but so are all Caldari RPers."

If, hypothetically, your question was, say, about RPing a female character ("Is my female alt X realistic? Or am I playing her wrong") and I felt that she was not, in fact, a realistic character, I could choose between responding "In my experience, women who head large corporations tend to be more assertive and self-confident than your alt X seems to be on the occasions I've interacted with her.  You might want to watch some clips of IRL women in positions of power being interviewed or giving speeches or before Parliamentary or congressional committees" or I could respond "As a woman, I tend to look at men RPing women with amusement, because I see it as boys trying to be girls and not quite succeeding at it".

I guarantee you, the second response would get the modhammer.

I hope this helps clarify the difference between un-modworthy, respectful discussion and modworthy, insulting, 'urdoingitwrong'.

[orange]

The reason I asked the question is that part of having a discussion on RP is that we want feedback.  We want to hear the views of others, which in order to be useful needs to contain criticism.  Criticism can be interpreted as "urdoingitwrong."

I think it is clear that constructive criticism is encouraged, which Davlos's post was not.

[Ciarente]

Let me add that an insulting post does not become exempt from mod action because part of the post is constructive. Our usual action in such cases is to suggest the poster reposts without the offending content.

[lallara zhuul]

There is the fine line of turning this into a forum-fu thing as well.

If you learn how to play the rules, by being clever enough you can go insulting people left and right without mod intervention.

I'd rather do it without being clever and being modded than turning this into a place where you have to spend two hours formulating a post that would not get modded that would have the exact same content and purpose as one that does.

Earlier in these forums some things did not get modded if you emphasized the fact that you were expressing your personal opinion, now if your personal opinion is not constructive or going with the 'let all flowers bloom' mindset of the current RP community you will get modded.

Which in itself has been a choice by the moderators to shape the mindset of the RP community.

Which kind of shows the power that the moderation of this forum has on this part of the RP community that think of this place as an authority on Things.

[Ciarente]

I encourage those confused about the difference between expressing one's personal opinion and insulting other players re-read the FAQ, which has not changed since the forum's inception, most particularly these parts:

 
This forum is an OOC place for EVE roleplayers to discuss the game and roleplaying. It is a place to exchange ideas and share information. It is a place for positive, polite debate. It is a place for discussion, not arguments.

It is a place for civil and courteous conversation. It is not a place for flamewars, bullying, point-scoring or other asshattery. (The Mods reserve the right to define 'asshattery' as behaviour not in line with the forum's purpose). It is not a place for people to show how 'wrong' others are.

 
FAQ:
Q: What's the difference between debate and argument?
A: Debate or discussion involves people putting forward their ideas and opinions. Argument is when people start fighting over whose ideas or opinions are 'right'. For example, if you find yourself responding to a post with anything along the lines of 'You're wrong, because...', stop and think. Don't sit there working out what's wrong with someone else's idea. Propose your own, and tell us all the ways in which it's awesome. Everybody wins a discussion: nobody wins an argument.

 

Q: So you want us to act all lovey-dovey?
A: Yes. Deal with it.

Q: Doesn't being polite to people I disagree with make me a hypocrite?
A: No. It makes you a grown-up.

 

Q: What about free and frank debate?
A: Strange as it may seem, given some of the forums on the internet, but it is possible to have an honest exchange of views without being rude, hostile, offensive, aggressive or bullying. That kind of behaviour destroys communities, virtual and otherwise, and Will Not Be Tolerated.

Q: But I totally know more about EVE and RP than that idiot who just posted!
A: Good for you. Now demonstrate that you also know more about being a grown-up. Your personal experience in EVE and outside it can inform your opinion and provide you with examples for your position, but it doesn't magically make your opinion worth more than someone else's. There are veteran EVE players, life-long table-top gamers, expert LARPers, published authors and many others in the EVE RP community. We all bring something different to the table: so share what you bring rather than trying to use it to knock everyone else's plate to the floor.

Q: How can I tell if my post is out of line or not?
A: It's a safe bet that if you finish typing and think to yourself: "Hah! I showed HIM!" you should probably not post. Other danger signs: personal attacks on the player, including the player's style of RP (i.e. "of course you think that, you RP an Amarr"), insinuations that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

Q: So I can't disagree with anyone's RP?
A: Sure you can disagree. Just do it politely, I'll even venture to say nicely, and remember that they have as much right to their opinion as you have to yours. For example: Player A writes: "I see the Intaki as space hippies." Player B answers: "Of course they aren't space hippies, there are no hippies in Eve." That would be the WRONG way to answer. The RIGHT way would be something like "Really? I see the Intaki as more techno-buddhists. That's how I play my character, but hey, it's a big Cluster, right?"

[lallara zhuul]

I guess people should use more smiley faces.

They defuse any derogatory comment on the internet, right?

EDIT: Actually the last bit of the last quote of the rules would get the one posting and the one responding to the 'hippies' post both modded in these forums.

'Hippie' is a derogatory term that can be used to negatively paint a lot of people, including those that do not play EVE or use these forums, basically anybody who does not prescribe to the 'HTFU' mentality of mainstream EVE.

Also responding to a post that can be found offensive would automatically get modded.

[Ciarente]

I would advise posters seeking to avoid moderation to rely on manners rather than smiley faces.