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[Samira Kernher]

And yeah, what Silas said. Slavery and the Reclaiming is a part of Amarr culture. I don't see how it's 'derping' for established extremist Houses to be aggressively pro-Reclaiming.

Amarr has room for both traditionalists and liberals. It'd be a very boring faction if it was solely comprised of the latter.

[Silas Vitalia]

And yeah, what Silas said. Slavery and the Reclaiming is a part of Amarr culture. I don't see how it's 'derping' for established extremist Houses to be aggressively pro-Reclaiming.

Amarr has room for both traditionalists and liberals. It'd be a very boring faction if it was solely comprised of the latter.

^

Being pro-Amarr IC means you have to deal with all of the awful awful things your faction has done / is doing / is planning to do, forever.  People will give you grief about it (and rightly so). Enemies of the Empire aren't generally going to distinguish which House you support, or how you feel about slavery. They will paint you with a broad brush, justified or not.

If your character believes in the awful things the Empire does then criticisms are water off a duck's back.

If they don't then that can cause difficulties.

[Silas Vitalia]

There is always room for Amarr reformers and liberals, but accepting and having to RP around all of the horribad stuff the Empire does is part of that package.

[Lyn Farel]

The problem is not what conservatives and extremists do ICly. That's expected.

The issue is the constant and utter silence, or even apathy, coming from the so called liberal Houses. We never hear of liberals, we just keep hearing again and again of Sarum and the likes. No wonder why Esna or other Amarrians continue to get the consequences of that ICly. If we don't read about a vocal opposition, it's like the whole Empire condone it.

Considering how Heideran was considered during centuries, and how his doctrines and way of life were so loved and spreaded around, I have difficulties to believe that everyone in the Empire suddenly stopped voicing their concerns about that as well.

Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...

On the other hand we keep hearing again and again about the oh-so-awesome Ardishapur, and the Sarumites now. Yay. Again.

[Silas Vitalia]

The problem is not what conservatives and extremists do ICly. That's expected.

The issue is the constant and utter silence, or even apathy, coming from the so called liberal Houses. We never hear of liberals, we just keep hearing again and again of Sarum and the likes. No wonder why Esna or other Amarrians continue to get the consequences of that ICly. If we don't read about a vocal opposition, it's like the whole Empire condone it.

Considering how Heideran was considered during centuries, and how his doctrines and way of life were so loved and spreaded around, I have difficulties to believe that everyone in the Empire suddenly stopped voicing their concerns about that as well.

Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...

On the other hand we keep hearing again and again about the oh-so-awesome Ardishapur, and the Sarumites now. Yay. Again.

Just a few short years ago we had a peacenick emperor writing the Pax Amar, winning international peace awards, and calling for an end to the reclaiming.

Hiederaan and Doriam both were drastically different than Jamyl in tone and disposition.

Jamyl is aggressive and pro-reclaiming, and has a tight grip on the Heirs, we aren't likely to hear much dissent from liberal Houses in this current environment.

House Sarum probably didn't like it much when the last two Emperors were calling for more peace and understanding.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Lyn has it here. I rolled an Amarr on the basis I would be playing a faction that was more than GRRR ARGH ENSLAVE RAWR. In the past few years, we have finally been able to develop a faction that has more than that single facet. However, when the defining face of Amarr action is once again "Hey, we're stealing all your people, k?" then interactivity is more or less nil.

Silas, you like playing the controlling supremacist. I get that. That's fine. The problem is that - especially given that most people perceive the Empire as a monolithic entity - these kinds of things (whether done by CCP or another player) end up being reflected onto all of us, and end up stomping flat what a lot of us have enjoyed doing for some time.

As I said before, RPing a side where every single conversation ends up being distilled down to SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY simply is not fun for me.

[Samira Kernher]

Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...

Weak? Kor-Azor is the Amarrian Batman, and probably the most good amongst the current crop of heirs. He's also the Imperial Chancellor, which gives him a lot of political power. He just keeps it quiet, to maintain his political standing I'd assume. That doesn't make him weak, just subtle. If he were to become Emperor, I'd assume he'd implement Heideran-style reforms.

Also, while House Ardishapur is the most traditional House in general, it's rather liberal about the Reclaiming. Ardishapur supports sending missionaries and converting people through peaceful methods, rather than through military conquest.

And no, Catiz isn't a good opponent. She and Tash-Murkon are closer to the Kingdom than to the Empire, and that isn't a good thing (concerned with how to make the most money out of their slaves, treating them like actual property). She's progressive in regards to the Empire's economy, but she likely views slaves as a free labor force, and war as a path to more ISK.

[Silas Vitalia]

The problem is that - especially given that most people perceive the Empire as a monolithic entity - these kinds of things (whether done by CCP or another player) end up being reflected onto all of us, and end up stomping flat what a lot of us have enjoyed doing for some time.

As I said before, RPing a side where every single conversation ends up being distilled down to SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY simply is not fun for me.

I'm just hearing a lot of sadface from you because one of the houses and the Empress are doing the bad things again.

Like I said there were -many- years of docile Emperors dedicated to peace and a kinder, gentler Amarr. The conservatives had it rough then, you and yours have it rough now. The pendulum swings.

The Caldari who don't like Heth have to deal with outsiders lumping them together, and dealing with opposing his politics while trying to stay loyal. This seems no different than your situation.

If the people you are talking to distill every conversation down to the same 1 talking point then find new people to talk to.

If they lump you in with you entire faction without getting to know you character then that's on them, and likely not worth your time.

Rolling amarr RP is not easy mode you will absolutely be trolled IC for the nastier bits of policy and history -all the time-.

And there were plenty of us doing the conservative, warmongering Amarr thing when it was politically unpopular, and we had peace-seeking Emperors and the entire politics of the Empire was -not- going in that direction.

Liberals had YEARS of PF plotline 'weakening' the conservative Amarr factions.

[BloodBird]

All those years are backstory. The conservatives are active today in real time.

Players have short and selective memories.

[Horatius Caul]

Esna, are you seriously complaining that the most hardcore Warrior Reclaiming House, in a time of war, with a pro-reclaiming warrior-queen on the throne, is promoting the idea of The Reclaiming?

And you're complaining that none of the other houses voice dissenting views? It's never been in the character of the Heirs to air each others' dirty laundry in the open - that's just not how holder politics are managed. Even if it was, Merimeth is Jamyl's closest ally - there is literally nothing to gain by openly challenging his plan to dedicate more resources to the ongoing war.

I understand the feeling of resentment, but if you didn't want to get into arguments about slavery and religious oppression, maybe you shouldn't be playing the faction of the slavers and religious oppressors (or maybe you should find other people to have arguments with). At least the Caldari have a legitimate complaint in how their faction changed from megacorporate to fascist, because that was an unprecedented tonal shift.

[Sepherim]

Actually, might be wrong, but as it stands most Heirs have remained silent. Sarum want war, Ardishapur wants an education reform, Kador is "controlling" the feasting on his land. The Amarr plot is mostly starting, we've seen a lot of Caldari and Minmatarr up to now, and some Gallente, give them some time to develop the Amarr.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Meh, I was rather grumpy to begin with earlier today, and that definitely effected my posting. For that I apologize.

I'll sum up my argument as this, however:
- Previous interaction with the RP community has made it clear that the moment the word "slavery" comes into a discussion, it will become the focal point of the discussion-turned-arguement.
- We have not heard a dissenting - or even alternate - view from anyone in the Empire. Not only does this mean there is nothing to distract from this, it reinforces the view that the Empire is a monolithic entity; this means people will not treat it as a "Sarum thing".
- I, and I dare say many others in the Amarr RP community, have worked long and hard to expunge the idea that Amarr can be summed up entirely as "slavery!"
- I find RP solely consisting of people declaring how hideous and hostile the other side is to be quite boring.
- I also find RP solely consisting of interactions with my own faction to be quite limiting as well.
- Note the use of solely. I'm not asking for any of this to be gone completely, but for it not to be the summation of 90% of my RP interaction.

[Samira Kernher]

- Previous interaction with the RP community has made it clear that the moment the word "slavery" comes into a discussion, it will become the focal point of the discussion-turned-arguement.

Has this changed because the Reclaiming wasn't going on? I don't think so, and I don't think restarting the Reclaiming will suddenly make it worse. In fact, the only thing that will make it go away would be if the Empire released EVERY remaining slave. Minmatar players are an 'all or nothing' bunch on the issue, I find.

- We have not heard a dissenting - or even alternate - view from anyone in the Empire. Not only does this mean there is nothing to distract from this, it reinforces the view that the Empire is a monolithic entity; this means people will not treat it as a "Sarum thing".

I expect that because the Empress is a Sarumite, other Houses are just waiting for her to make a ruling. If she decries it, then those who are opposed to it will also raise their voices. If she supports it, then they won't. That's politics. Even Amarr diplomats are shown, in the article, to be more or less abstaining from discussing the topic.

- I, and I dare say many others in the Amarr RP community, have worked long and hard to expunge the idea that Amarr can be summed up entirely as "slavery!"

And it's not entirely slavery. Most of the news we've had lately from the Amarr Empire has NOT been slavery. It's been celebrations (Kador), Blooders, education (Ardishapur), and political reformations (Kor-Azor).

There's nothing wrong with one slavery news after all the non-slavery ones. Especially when, so far, it's only one House (a House that has been declared to be the only pro-Reclaiming House, and has been identified as such for a decade).

- Note the use of solely. I'm not asking for any of this to be gone completely, but for it not to be the summation of 90% of my RP interaction.

I think your issue is more with players than the lore. Simply put, the players are at the extremes. There are players who think that Heidaran was a bad Amarr because he didn't release every Minmatar everywhere all at once. As long as any slaves exist at all in the Empire, there will be slavery arguments.

So unless you're hoping for the Empire to suddenly decide to end slavery (which it won't, since PF outright says that that viewpoint is incredibly rare in the Empire), the slavery arguments will not end, no matter if there is an active Reclaiming or not.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Just saying, under Heideran's pax amarria policy were probably more people reclaimed actively than under the rule of Jamyl. It's not a question of whether one is pro or against the Reclaiming - it never has been - it's a question of how to pursue the Reclaiming.

My problem with the Sarum thing is that the Sarum family is supposed to know how to wage war. Okay, the leaks we have are decidedly a breach of operational security, but I guess they are inescapable if you want to keep the players on board. Still, it seems to be a bit embarrassing that someone who made his career in the MIO can't handle that. Also, other than that, the entire thing doesn't seem to be that well thought out either. The Amarr Navy isn't structured in a way to effectively wage war against another nation in the EVE cluster and the Sarum family knows that much. A few troops and ships of the Sarum family won't change that, though, the entire Navy would need to be restructured, really. I'd love to see that hapening and after that I'd have little concerns with Sarum going all aggro.

So far the actions of Merimeth only lead to reapproach of the Matari-Gallente after they got so wonderfully up against one another over the 'Star of Matar' incident and raising their attention to his plans. It prolly made politicking for the Amarr in the CONCORD assembly harder as well. Either there is a really brilliant strategy behind all that, which is really hard to discern, or her is an idiot frotheing from the mouth bend on conquering the Galaxy. (And with that he'd mirror how a good slice of 'conservative' Amarr are portrayed, sadly.)

Idiots rarely succeed in their plans to conquer, though. So, really, even for someone pro-military (though not frothing from the mouth idiot-fanatic) there is little reason to throw much in with Merimeth.

That is what's really annoying about it. Not that he's pushing towards a reclaiming by military might, but that he is pretty much an idiot about how he does so, imho.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Lyn and Esna: As Silas is saying, Liberal Amarr used to be *way* in the ascendant. Heideran and Doriam were both extremely liberal. Heck, PIE used to be a voice for the Amarran liberals and the Pax Amarr.

Then the war happened, and things changed real fast on that front. Most of the liberal characters I know of took a pretty hard turn for the conservative with the attack on Amarr, so its not surprising there are few of them now.