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Author Topic: Amarr Arc  (Read 52656 times)

Vincent Pryce

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #195 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:51 »

Many bitter, yet fruitful, words of delicious truth.



GOOD DAY.

I love you Aldrith, that is all.

PS. Yeah, fuck that sacred fern.
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #196 on: 19 Mar 2013, 15:11 »

http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2

Wat.

Cellebrations for victories in the Bleak Lands? When we are on the verge of losing all those systems again and have already lost all of the contestable systems in Devoid? :(

Someone's going to get embarrassed. Again.
« Last Edit: 19 Mar 2013, 15:25 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #197 on: 19 Mar 2013, 15:30 »

http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2

Wat.

Cellebrations for victories in the Bleak Lands? When we are on the verge of losing all those systems again and have already lost all of the contestable systems in Devoid? :(

Someone's going to get embarrassed. Again.

Perhaps the actual disposition of forces and 'situation on the ground' is not information easily shared with most Imperial Citizens?

 East Asia has always been at war with Eurasia. GLORIOUS VICTORY
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #198 on: 19 Mar 2013, 16:15 »

Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the new transport ships aren't going to be retrieving new slaves? There's always the possibility that an event could happen where those transports are used to extract the Dusties from Caldari/Gallente space after their major event is done. The Empress did just openly tell the Dusties they have a place with us, but nothing was said as to how they Dusties were going to make their way to the Empire.  :P

I really don't see a slave raid happening, yet. I can't rule it out, but really, some Amarr in here seem to whine like the Caldari that their precious Titan will  crash on Caldari Prime.

Honestly, I have RP'd a slave keeper for quite some time now and hand a lot of debates with non-Amarr and when I put the arguments on the table most opponents had a hard time to condemn Amarrian slavery in general while being okay with the prison system of their own faction or how they themselves assign legal guardians to those incapable of caring for his or her own interests and such things.

What the usual westerner forgets is that on a rational basis, slavery isn't easily dealt with. We all feel it to be bad, but why it is bad, while it's okay to have prisoners do (forced) labor, while it's okay to force people into conscription in case of war, while it's okay to have legal guardians watching over the psychically or mentally disabled and have them work is inclusion and not a bad thing, ... that are some pretty tough questions that simply aren't answered by "because that's not slavery and slavery is bad".

What hampers Amarrian RP most, in my humble opinion, have always been those people that portrayed (thier) Amarr as mustache twirling no-gooders on the one hand and those that portayed (their) Amarr as thinking that slavery is bad and really needs to be abolished.

And while I agree that
The best argument we have regarding slavery shouldn't be that we don't do raids, it should be that we A) release slaves once they achieve spiritual enlightenment, B ) educate slaves, both academically and spiritually, and C) ban the use of TCMC's (outside of Tash-Murkon and the Kingdom because they're bloody heretics).

What would be better for slavery isn't to abolish it, or cease taking slaves, but to enforce the actual positive aspects of it.
I don't think that more focus on the 'good' sides should be done by white-washing it. Vitoc and slave abuse happen. So does child abuse, irl, mostly by family members - is the institution of family therefore bad? Thing is, if you white-wash slavery, it stops being realistic. Thus, focus on it's good sides, yes, eliminating all the bad sides? Nah, please don't. Keep it realistic.

We don't have to get rid of slavery in order to be able to play good Amarr characters. We have plenty of legs to stand on, we just need to use them and, hopefully, get CCP to start acknowledging them as well.
True, but seven so we do not need slave raids in violation of agreements the Empire has to establish our Amarr-ness. <,< Esna  has a good point when he says:
The problem is, Samira, that if the Amarr are portrayed as the ones running around and breaking all their treaties and agreements, that portrays them as objectively bad.
And that
The Republic and the State already have a one-up on us for breaking CONCORD agreements.
doesn't mitigate that point a bit. Breaking agreements isn't something that can be sold as good, no. Especially not by saying "but you did, too!". Two wrongs don't make a right. Amarr should keep it's agreements. Taking slaves in conquered systems isn't in direct breach with said agreements, though, rather it's not clear whether it is against those or not. vOv

Still, I'd favour if the Sarumite troops won't be used for slave raids, and against what some people in here say, I don't see it coming and especially I don't see it as inevitable.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #199 on: 19 Mar 2013, 16:16 »

http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2

Wat.

Cellebrations for victories in the Bleak Lands? When we are on the verge of losing all those systems again and have already lost all of the contestable systems in Devoid? :(

Someone's going to get embarrassed. Again.
Don't you hear, we're winning. CCP has spoken. ;P
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #200 on: 20 Mar 2013, 04:36 »

Apologies for the forthcoming wall of text.

And while I agree that
The best argument we have regarding slavery shouldn't be that we don't do raids, it should be that we A) release slaves once they achieve spiritual enlightenment, B ) educate slaves, both academically and spiritually, and C) ban the use of TCMC's (outside of Tash-Murkon and the Kingdom because they're bloody heretics).

What would be better for slavery isn't to abolish it, or cease taking slaves, but to enforce the actual positive aspects of it.
I don't think that more focus on the 'good' sides should be done by white-washing it. Vitoc and slave abuse happen. So does child abuse, irl, mostly by family members - is the institution of family therefore bad? Thing is, if you white-wash slavery, it stops being realistic. Thus, focus on it's good sides, yes, eliminating all the bad sides? Nah, please don't. Keep it realistic.

Not what I was saying at all. I'm not saying the bad sides should be completely and utterly removed. Afterall, something I really try to hit on with my own RP is that you can play an Amarr/Slavery-supporting Minmatar while also playing the slavery card straight.

What I do want action taken against, though, is those aspects that are wrong by Amarrian morality. I like to point to the TCMC debate for this, since that's exactly what I want to see. It shows that the Empire does not have a binary good/evil view on slavery, but rather a complicated system of variables, that certain methods are considered good and certain methods are considered evil. Sansha's Nation is another good example... Sansha actually thought that the Empire would be his ally because they were slavers, and was utterly flabbergasted when the Empire went, "NOPE. Your kind of slavery is bad, m8. /glassplanet." It established that the Empire understands that there is "good" slavery and "bad" slavery.

The Empire needs to have specific rules for how you conduct slavery, rules that ensure that it is something noble (by Amarrian morality) rather than something evil. I want to see CCP move away from the TonyG "Empire is ebil cackling slavers" crap and go back to recognizing that there are lines that the Empire won't cross, that it actually has integrity. That's not to say these things should never happen, afterall there's always the exceptions and exploitations and abuses; I do not advocate "whitewashing" at all. But there needs to at least be that conflict. Vitoc should not be accepted simply because it's more efficient. TCMC's should not be accepted simply because they're more efficient (thankfully, PF recognized that, even if it had the TC sit on their ass and refuse to play moral police like they're supposed to).

I'm also saying nothing about torture and beatings, by the way. If anything those should be focused on, too, as they are a good thing by the Amarrian moral paradigm (essentially, my posts are arguing by Amarr morality, not Western. I want to see the good aspects acknowledged... but what is 'good' by Amarr is not necessarily good by Western ethics). They are traditional methods that adhere to the 'hardship brings the soul closer to God' line of argument that is key to rationalizing slavery in the Empire. Those are "good" punishments and should be maintained, even though they're wrong by Western morality.


Sorry, it's hard to describe. Basically, here's what I want to see from Amarrian slavery, and how I personally rationalize it when playing Samira and how she is able to argue in favor of it.

[spoiler]Amarr Slavery
Purpose: Spiritual enlightenment and education

Pro-purpose:
-Academic and spiritual education.
-Slaves are actual human beings worthy of God's love.
-Slave raids are necessary to save the soul, even if it ruins the Empire's reputation. You can't 'be patient' and say "oh we'll Reclaim everyone eventually", because everyone who dies apart from God is forever lost. Slave raids are pro-purpose, and therefore good.
-Hardship purifies the soul. Pain purifies the soul. Torture and beatings are necessary in the battle against temptation. Pain teaches you not to put your hand in a fire, beatings teach you not to fall to sin. Torture is pro-purpose, and therefore good.
-It can be difficult if not impossible to convert someone resistant in a single lifetime. By raising their children in slavery, and their children's children, you ensure that they are brought up in an environment where they will not be surrounded by temptation. Generational slavery is pro-purpose, and therefore good.
-Slaves are released once they prove that they have truly given themselves to God.

Anti-purpose:
-Transcranial Microcontrollers remove free will. Without free will, you cannot be taught. You cannot choose to turn to God. You are a "true slave", working solely to provide free labor for your owner. TCMCs eliminate the purpose of Amarrian slavery, and are therefore evil.
-Vitoxin removes free will, though to a lesser degree in comparison to TCMCs. They may be acceptable for problematic slaves who can be controlled no other way, but are a sign of failure to educate and bring up the slave properly. Vitoxin is anti-purpose and therefore evil.
-Breeding colonies focus on having more slaves to do more work to make more money for their Holder. There is nothing educational about breeding colonies. It makes slaves cattle to be exploited instead of people to be educated. Breeding colonies are anti-purpose and therefore evil.
-Death is absolutely anti-purpose. Spiritual enlightenment requires the slave converting to God prior to death. Killing a slave while they are still a slave (and therefore, still unenlightened) is ensuring that their soul will never unite with God, and therefore evil. The conditions of the mines, where slaves are often allowed to die in awful conditions, are therefore evil and completely against the purpose of Amarrian slavery, and slaves should never be arbitrarily killed or even killed as a punishment unless completely irredeemable. A chronicle outright says that the Amarr try to avoid killing in favor of converting their enemies through slavery.[/spoiler]

Simple rules that, IMO, make a very legimate case for slavery as a good thing, even though some of the "good" aspects are still very bad by Western morality. You do not have to "whitewash" slavery. What you do have to establish is that there are cultural rules, and ensure that those rules are followed and enforced (if slavery can't be considered Good, it can at least be respected as a Lawful institution that has internal integrity). The occasional people acting against purpose are fine, with conservatives largely adhering to it and liberals acting against it, but they should ultimately be recognized as being against purpose. Heresy is heresy because it goes against established orthodoxy. You need an established orthodoxy, and people (TC, Speakers) who are able and willing to enforce the orthodoxy. Right now we have some implementation of the former (TCMC arguments, anti-Nation viewpoint, etc), but very little of the latter. I want to see more of the latter, more actual enforcing of the orthodox view. We saw it happen with Arzad, but not with equally bad stuff like TCMCs and breeding colonies, which bugs me.


tl;dr: Not saying we should cover up bad stuff and just write about good stuff. You can make slavery a good thing (or at least respectable) without abolishing it, and without whitewashing it. I just want some integrity in the orthodoxy, and moral police who will actually do their job of policing (Articio can't do everything...).
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #201 on: 20 Mar 2013, 08:51 »

Actually in the last round of Faction aggression it was the Caldari and the Republic being adventurous and throwing CONCORD / YULAI agreements to the wayside and launching invasions.

The Empire (and the Federation) are actually 'in the right' with regards to maintaining concord status quo and international treaties the last few years. 

Rodj Blake has been kind enough to point this out to Matari fairly often but the other Amarr players haven't been taking up that line of argument quite as much.   It's a defensive war, our sovereignty was breached, the Republic was the one building secret fleets, launching invasions, attacking CONCORD, and ripping up treaties they signed.   

My point being there is plenty of recent PF over the last few years to cast the Empire in a much kinder, defensive light if Amarr RPers are interested.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #202 on: 20 Mar 2013, 11:42 »

Silas, in response to your comments, I'd suggest you go re-read Nico's post here about why the "but the Matari attacked first!" line of thinking doesn't help very much.

Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.

Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.

And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

kalaratiri

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #203 on: 20 Mar 2013, 11:51 »

Sort of off topic I guess, but something I never quite got about the way the creation of Faction Warfare made all the nations internal factions into one big unified mass... is that it shouldn't have happened.

You've got a wide variety of opinions and ways of doing things inside a faction, which continuously creates friction within this faction. Suddenly, big world changing event (Faction war) happens, and we're expected to accept that all these factions just went "Well, I never liked you much before, but those guys over there? They're way worse" and got on with the business of proxy war?

Where's the internal competition of differing viewpoints gone? As an example, the Brutor might want an all out slug fest with the Amarr, but I imagine that isn't how the Sebiestor or Vherokior tribes would go about it all. Why was there no politicking and sneakyness between these internal groups? Why weren't the Caldari Megacorps cutting each other out of arms deals and manufacturing contracts?

I know a common enemy is supposed to unify people, but in a world as viciously competitive as Eve's, I can't imagine this would just happen.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #204 on: 20 Mar 2013, 12:11 »

Silas, in response to your comments, I'd suggest you go re-read Nico's post here about why the "but the Matari attacked first!" line of thinking doesn't help very much.

Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.

Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.

And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.

Going back to the 'day of darkness' has increasingly low returns. The Republic is a nation state, signing treaties, signing the Yulai Accords, and is bound to act as a state entiry.  Signing treaties means giving up certain ghosts. 

A crude metaphor, but the current American fringe argument for Reparations for ancestors of victims of the American Slave trade hasn't exactly gained any traction; there is the (often distasteful) attitude of 'that was hundreds of years ago, time to get over it'

I imagine in New Eden there is a large portion of the Republic and the International community echoing the same things, and quick to criticize the Republic for breaking agreements as a member of the galactic community.  'That happened hundreds of years ago, you are a CONCORD member state, you are all grown up, it's time to act like a member state and mediate differences through the proper channels'

Plenty of room for RP give and take on this one without getting into 'rawr slaver rawr heathen'
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #205 on: 20 Mar 2013, 12:14 »

If and when the Amarr are running slave raids with the public approval of the Empress then the Amarr RPers will have to eat crow and talk to others with their tails between their legs or carry the flag and tow the party line. 

A difficult decision for Amarr supporters nonetheless, but much like real life they aren't all easy.  And they shouldn't all be easy.  You faction can and will do awful things that will make you look a fool in public, it's up to us how to respond, condem, or support.  I think it adds to the RP milieu.
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Karmilla Strife

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #206 on: 20 Mar 2013, 12:49 »

Regarding the Kador Prime celebrations: It seems like a great way to boost public morale despite the actual militia situation. I'm wondering if there would be interest in a baselining RP channel for something like this, so we could all partake of the bread and circuses.
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #207 on: 20 Mar 2013, 12:56 »

That's actually a really good idea!
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #208 on: 20 Mar 2013, 13:40 »

tl;dr: Not saying we should cover up bad stuff and just write about good stuff. You can make slavery a good thing (or at least respectable) without abolishing it, and without whitewashing it. I just want some integrity in the orthodoxy, and moral police who will actually do their job of policing (Articio can't do everything...).
I agree, largely, though I would point out that as far as I understand the Speakers, they don't have much of a stake in such things as how slavery is conducted - they once had a more direct role as mediators, but nowadays they only interfere if the thing is Empire-shaking. They are securing the TC's influence against the Emperor, mostly. The institutions that are responsible for fair treatment of slaves are the TC and the Emperor (in that order, I think), with the MIO being the executive organ in that case, imho. The problem here is that the TC has been kept weak, at least since the heretic Karsoth grappled control over the Empire and then with Sarum leaving the seat of high deacon vacant. (Maybe if a case would be made to the Empress to fill that seat the Speakers would get involved. (: )

Also: Slave raids aren't necessary for the reclaiming to work, nor are slaves per se. The Empire is open to willing converts and has always been (The Khanid were mostly accepted as willing converts about at the time when Amarr started practicing slavery.) Amarr shouldn't break agreements it has made just to raid for slaves - Amarrian ethics place high value on righteousness and I'd think keeping agreements up is considered righteous. So, no, I don't think that slave raids are necessary to save souls (you can go a Pax Amarria route), they are just one possible way to go. At the moment, raiding any CONCORD signatory for slaves is, I'd claim, unrighteous by Amarrian standards.

"Raiding" systems that changed sovereignty from republican to imperial might work, though, it would be an Amarrian POW thing and depending on how it is delivered (e.g. the Amarr pushing CONCORD to give an heads-up to the cluster that says: "Yes, if those systems change souvereignty, it's for the holder of that sovereignty to decide what to do with it. That's what sovereignty means. That's why the Caldari were able to have their auction. The Amarr are entitled to slave-raid in their own systems.") I don't see it as such a big problem as Esna or some others here, especially if it's done smart by the Amarr.

As to playing the "we're in the right" card: Yes, that's a card one can play, but as Esna pointed out, no, it's not that simple. The day of darkness isn't like the American slave trade and such. People, at least in the Minmatar community of RPers aren't tired to bring up the day of darkness all the time, nor were the officails of the Republic to justify the Elder invasion. That you imagine that those arguments are oftentimes dismissed, especially by people in the Republic, is, sadly I think, your imagionation. The fact is that all the Minmatar and the Federals cling tightly to it as an easy way to bash the Amarr - players and NPCs alike.

The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.

Emotion, in a public debate, usually beats rationality. vOv That's how it is and that's why usually, not the rational position wins the day. And that is the real challenge of Amarrian RP: The Amarr will never sway the western player by emotion, so they need to employ reason and rationality in their arguments. If they don't, they devolve usually into "well, we're against slavery, too" or "being the bad boy is oh so cool *mustache-twirl*". (And no, evil Amarr aren't cool, usually, the pirate factions are at least much better at that.)
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #209 on: 20 Mar 2013, 13:50 »

It's odd. I keep seeing players from the Amarr bloc posting about how the Empire doesn't conduct slave raids anymore.

I can only assume those of you with this opinion haven't looked through the mission write-ups with Amarr as the opposition. There is more than one mission sequence that portrays Imperial ships guarding slave compounds that have been filled by Caldari run slave raids. The targets involved drop navy tags and are the main source of same for LP store offers in the Republic & Fed.

Now I'll grant you that it is possible that these are either unsanctioned or semi-sanctioned, but they do happen, at least if mission based content is to be believed. As I recall the main article on slavery also makes it clear that authorised imperial slavers sometimes aren't too fussy about who they buy new stock from.

I'm sure the Republic & Fed are up to equally nasty stuff. But the Empire's hands are anything but clean in this respect.
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Kind Regards,
Arnulf Ogunkoya.
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