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[Lyn Farel]

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3900.0

I must protest here. I do not see how the hell that post deserves to be catacombed and Nico explained it quite well in the following answers. The only flamebaiting came from the other answers imho, and that post was interesting enough not to be killed in the process in my opinion.

That's just throwing the baby with the bath water.

People seem to see politics and blanket statements everywhere, where there are none. I can understand that US natives get a lot of flak IRL on a regular basis, but that's not an excuse to see offensive statements everywhere, especially when the answers seem to actually look for drama where there is none, imo.



Edit:

As for the object of the debate itself, wtf ? How is that offensive to tell one's own experience on different cultures ?

So, saying that a lot of the american culture has often priviledged good vs evil interpretations and stories (be it in the movie industry, or be it in the speeches of Bush junior) to one's experience is forbidden now ? Especially when used to support an interesting point ?

Nobody said that because it can be the case here and there that it is actually the case for everyone and everything.

I guess I can not say either that traditionnal stories in the asian culture often favors honor and duty over rebel/individualistic western views because that would also be a blanket statement ?

[orange]

The statement that Americans have a necessity for such a condition, while Europeans less so can be taken to be a statement of some kind of intellectual superiority on the part of a European in response to a comment by an American.

It can be seen as writing off a segment of the community's opinions because they are American and therefore have a necessity to see the world as black & white, blue & red, green & yellow.

[Seriphyn]

I agree. It was just a statement. Not a condescension, not a derision, not an insult. There was even the word 'tend', there.

There is a lot of cultural bias in this forum towards the left side of the Atlantic. In my experience as a British-American, criticizing US is not allowed, and ironically supporting Nicoletta's point was that responses seem to fall on a linear scale.

Ie. If you say anything that could be remotely seen as negative towards Americans, you must hate everything about Americans and the United States in its entirety. Therefore it's offensive.

That's exactly what happened here it seems.

[Silver Night]

I don't necessarily think the *intended* implication was that Americans are only able to handle simple black and white while Europeans are able to understand things that are more complex. That's pretty much how it read, though.

As a general rule, if you want to bring RL groups into the discussion in a comparison like that you want to be fairly careful about how you make those comparisons. *Especially* if you are drawing broad generalities about those groups.

I'm on my phone right now, so don't want to go to too much length, but Ican try and go into more detail when I get home from work if need be.

[Vikarion]

Ok, let me try creating similar statements, just with other groups.

For example:

"In my experience whites tend to see these polar opposites as a necessity, while blacks do less so..."

"In my experience older people tend to see these polar opposites as a necessity, while younger people do less so..."

"In my experience Germans tend to see these polar opposites as a necessity, while Italians do less so..."

Now, any of these statement are possibly true (though I doubt it), however, it's probably nicer to avoid using personal experience as a reason for throwing such a verbal hand-grenade into the discussion.

In retrospect, I should probably have reported the post rather than responding to it, but I tend to doubt my own judgment on what's report-able, and don't like feeling like a snitch anyway.

[Silver Night]

I prefer if you snitch, rather making things worse.

Edit: Now that I have a proper keyboard to work with:

You can certainly make comparisons - and comparisons to RL groups, even. After all, it's one of the most common ways for us to create context for ourselves when we are trying to build models of things from Eve in our heads. I would just ask that if you do that, you are aware that how you decide to phrase things is going to matter. In this case, as someone in America, I can tell you that the phrasing of Nico's post did come off as offensive - more because of the way it generalizes than anything else. These things will happen in a forum with a worldwide user base. It's expected, and it's fine as long as it doesn't become a pattern.

Again, I don't think that was the intent, and Nico is free to repost the parts of the post that were not problematic. Given it was embedded in the middle of a paragraph, I didn't feel it would be kosher to try and snip it out.

[Vikarion]

I prefer if you snitch, rather making things worse.

But I'm better at making things worse. >.>

[orange]

Given it was embedded in the middle of a paragraph, I didn't feel it would be kosher to try and snip it out.

I thought that was policy?

[Silver Night]

It's more of a strong guideline. I've done snip once or twice where the content in question was, for example, clearly separated from the rest of the post and it's a big post where there aren't any other problems.

Edit: And when I say once or twice, I literally mean once or twice in the couple of years that Backstage has been around. I'm extremely leery of inadvertently editorializing people's posts.

[Lyn Farel]

I honestly don't understand. It sounds a little too convenient to me to put that on cultural differences but well. Whatever.

I don't want to create a storm in a kettle. I just find that specific moderation to be rather alien to me, since we are putting everything on cultural differences (where I think it is more individual differences here).

Ok, let me try creating similar statements, just with other groups.

For example:

"In my experience whites tend to see these polar opposites as a necessity, while blacks do less so..."

"In my experience older people tend to see these polar opposites as a necessity, while younger people do less so..."

"In my experience Germans tend to see these polar opposites as a necessity, while Italians do less so..."

Now, any of these statement are possibly true (though I doubt it), however, it's probably nicer to avoid using personal experience as a reason for throwing such a verbal hand-grenade into the discussion.

In retrospect, I should probably have reported the post rather than responding to it, but I tend to doubt my own judgment on what's report-able, and don't like feeling like a snitch anyway.

The first statement is easily refutable since it is about a race and not a culture.

The second may be perfectly viable. If you refer to black and white situations, I would tend to actually say that's quite the contrary, older people tend to see more grey than younger people, in my experience.

For the third, maybe ? I couldnt tell honestly. Doesn't seem very relevant to me.

Anyway, how is that a hand grenade ? It's just cultural differences. If you want to see it as cultural superiority/inferiority... Where everyone knows that it was definitly not written to prove anything related to it or as a hidden snipe but as a honest observation on cultural experiences to further a point about... RP.

[Vikarion]

Anyway, how is that a hand grenade ? It's just cultural differences. If you want to see it as cultural superiority/inferiority... Where everyone knows that it was definitly not written to prove anything related to it or as a hidden snipe but as a honest observation on cultural experiences to further a point about... RP.

It seems fairly reasonable to assert that other people don't know that it wasn't a snipe, considering the fact that it rather quickly had two people responding to it as one (Gotti and myself). It probably is denigrating a culture, race, or nationality to say that they don't see things with more moral sophistication, since time and experience have proved that black and white views of morality usually don't coincide with good decision making. And, frankly, the statement wasn't necessary for the rest of the post or the point being made.

Personally, I have had quite an education over the past few years on the dangers of thinking in polar opposites, and I know quite a few people who also are careful about their moral judgments. Yet, I don't think that my personal experiences qualify me to generalize about "most Americans", however, and I would understand why someone else would find it offensive if I did.

[Lyn Farel]

It probably is denigrating a culture, race, or nationality to say that they don't see things with more moral sophistication

That's not what Nico said.

However I admit that it was quite ambiguous. I understand (and approve) that the moderation has to be strict though, so I am a bit torn on the matter.

[Myyona]

It can be seen as writing off a segment of the community's opinions because they are American and therefore have a necessity to see the world as black & white, blue & red, green & yellow,

republic & democrat.

Sorry, I have seen the television transmissions of the presidential campaigns, and there appear to be quite a popularity in American culture to highlight "this" vs. "that", even when the two are rather similar from a broader perspective.

[Bong-cha Jones]

When choosing between two things, the differences will generally be emphasized, even if they have many similarities.  That is how one makes choices between similar things.

[orange]

It can be seen as writing off a segment of the community's opinions because they are American and therefore have a necessity to see the world as black & white, blue & red, green & yellow,

republician& democrat.

Sorry, I have seen the television transmissions of the presidential campaigns, and there appear to be quite a popularity in American culture to highlight "this" vs. "that", even when the two are rather similar from a broader perspective.

The media's portrayal of it being "this" vs "that" can leave plenty of us equally vexed because there are other options not discussed by the media at large.  The presidential campaigns are an excellent example where media controlled coverage (especially television) paints a picture that dumbs down the choices available (why I stopped watching television news for the most part).  It does not mean there isn't a desire for more choice.