Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Katrina Oniseki]

On the purely genetic differences between Deteis and Civire: weren't the Deteis the only ones with Tube Child backgrounds?

Could it be that the state has effectively bred an executive and a worker caste?

I addressed that in my Tube Child thread here. The simple answer is that Civire culture might not think highly of the Tube Child concept, and might be culturally opting out of the program.

[Gesakaarin]

Well, Civire have always had the background options of "Mercenary" and "Dissident" which seems to imply that some Civire don't integrate as well as Deteis in the corporate structure of the State and either become guns for hire or speak out against it.

Although the idea that all Deteis work as executives and white collar workers while the Civire go off and do manual labour in the salt mines does seem a bit... contrived?

addendum: Of course, it certainly does add a different perspective if the CPD finds the majority of its support from Civire blue collar workers and all those Deteis professionals have an entirely different view on the matter.

[Vieve]

On the purely genetic differences between Deteis and Civire: weren't the Deteis the only ones with Tube Child backgrounds?

Could it be that the state has effectively bred an executive and a worker caste?

I addressed that in my Tube Child thread here. The simple answer is that Civire culture might not think highly of the Tube Child concept, and might be culturally opting out of the program.

To expand on that simple answer:  it might be that the Civire have historically been more resilient and fecund a race than the Deteis.  We also know little of the racial composition of pre-Federation/Federation era Caldari colonies (secret and otherwise).  It could be possible that more Civire emigrated from Caldari Prime in those days than did Deteis, which insulated them from the population shock that the Deteis may have experienced during the bombardment of Caldari Prime.

[Lithium Flower]

Although the idea that all Deteis work as executives and white collar workers while the Civire go off and do manual labour in the salt mines does seem a bit... contrived?

I don't think that standards of meritocracy take lineage into consideration. However, if talking about statistics, prevalence of Deteis executives and manual labor Civire is quite possible.

[Gottii]

I think players give way too much trust in a "meritocracy" as a bulwark against corruption and nepotism.  In fact, I can think of few easier and better systems for relatively small and elite section of population to maintain control. 

Basically, a meritocracy means its run by people who are judged to have the most merit.  Who judges those standards?  Why, the people at the top of course.  They're the ones who set the standards of whats valuable and meritorious.  It is a very effective feed-back loop that could keep a rather small section of the population in charge, all while pointing to being a "meritocracy" as a way of legitimizing their positions in society.

"But the tests are standardized!  They couldnt be faked!"  Well, they wouldnt have to be.  Who do you think has more time and resources to study, the child of an executive or the child of a dockworker?  Who has more private tutoring?  More cultural and intellectual capital passed down to them?     

I think people should judge a "meritocracy" with the same jaded and cynical eye they would look at say a "democracy".  Both of them can easily be manipulated by the Powers That Be to maintain a stranglehold on the leadership of a society.  Again, if anything, it would be far easier to subvert a meritocracy.

[NISYN Aelisha]

I think people should judge a "meritocracy" with the same jaded and cynical eye they would look at say a "democracy".  Both of them can easily be manipulated by the Powers That Be to maintain a stranglehold on the leadership of a society.  Again, if anything, it would be far easier to subvert a meritocracy.

I agree, though ICly this is the very reason Aelisha likes the State - as a capsuleer with access to social, mental and perceptive augmentations of the highest order, she can have much higher station and impact in the State (even with their segregation of capsuleers from society at large) than she could in a democratic, tribal or oligarchical/monarchical nation. 

As for Sol, well growing up in the system means that even wen you identify with the flaws, it's tough to see the alternatives as palatable (especially when that government made you immortal, rich and generally enabled your progression). 

As for players, I think that many of us, myself included, are guilty of drinking our own IC koolaid a little, but tbh I find this is healthy for the community, as most of us, even when guilty of such, can put it to the side for the sake of discussions like these.  A bit of OOC passion for a faction goes a long way to building a believable character imo, so long as you don't go full method and start thinking that there is only one true way. 

It is for this reason I enjoy Seri's patriotism, Kim's racial/cultural supremacy rants, hard line U'K and Amarr loyalist press releases and the likes.  What comes after the statement of intent may be the usual back biting and nonsense, but the hard line aspects or the factions really do provide the skeleton for progressive movements (or practicals in my case) to build around/on/through. 

As for the main topic, the Civire/Deteis divide is, as a few have already mentioned, something I feel is culturally ingrained despite the 'meritocracy'.  I doubt there is a conspiracy to keep Deteis at the top, as such racial favoritism would become apparent within a few generations as education standards for other ethnic groups fail to rise, but there is no reason why cadres as represented by corporate boards couldn't ensure meritocratic nepotism - the selection of the best from a pool of those loyal to 'the cause' of the mega in question.  It may be that Civire are found in more labour oriented or military careers due to the PF supported concept of borderline ancestor worship among the Caldari, in a similar way to 'military families' of the modern world - you go into the career of your forefathers because there is social stock or personal pride in doing so.  The Civire born to a marine who goes on to become a bank clerk has less to gain from his parentage/familial reputation than the same Civire who goes on to the officers corps, pushed to succeed but given leeway due to 'a good family name'. 

The above is a very simplistic and broad description of how I feel things work, due to the staggering size of the State, but we also have another key element of the Deteis - tube children.  Custom 'grown' children raised in State creches for a variety of tasks.  For those of you into 40k lore this all feels a bit Schola Progenium (as State creches also house orphans afaik) and a great way to indoctrinate individuals in corporate and State culture.  The high number of Deteis functionaries may then be explained by simple genetics - they have been bred from the gene-stock of the best and brightest (there may even be some law in place that individuals at a given GPA/achievement level must donate gametes to the tube program). 

Nature not being the end of the argument, this tube/orphan program will likely have to be significantly funded to ensure the highly militarised, tube-program endorsing State raised children ready for the employment demands of tomorrow.  So here you have a program that is only applied to the Deteis in large enough numbers to provide capsuleer viable specimens over time, entering them from artificial womb to end of education into a system that is identified as 'of value to the State'.  In a way, Gotti, I feel that this is the biggest element that backs up your assertions of Meritocratic subversion, on a scale that would be industrial and horrifying IRL. 

Even with nepotism out of the picture as a tool of control for anything but the upper echelons, entire generations are raised from a sterile, state-sponsored cradle to a likely ignominious, state-funded grave (vat) - all the while praising the State for 'giving them everything they have' - a truth that is reinforcement to patriots and nationals and likely a sickening corruption of the natural order to serve the corporate machine to outsiders. 

[lallara zhuul]

Sounds very viable,

State raised children would be more highly indoctrinated therefore more productive than 'free range' children.

Heh, kind of like the guy in the series Profit.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Yes, that's right. Tube Kat is totally awesomest and is the best of the best of the blondes.

[NISYN Aelisha]

Yes, that's right. Tube Kat is totally awesomest and is the best of the best of the blondes.

Bred for superiority, that is for sure.  But free range Intaki is still the eve master race.  Sorry .

[Khloe]

I'm probably just going to echo what many others have said already, but I'll toss my two cents in.

  I think the divide between Civire and Deteis is largely genetic with a healthy sprinkling of racial stereotyping mixed in. Much in the same way we characterize Latin people as being 'hot headed and passionate', Asians being good at math, or Irish as being ghostly white gingers with an unhealthy drinking habit. It's fun to play off of these stereotypes for humor, but obviously people are more complex and diverse than these two-dimensional representations can account for.

  As for diversity of cultures, the the mega corporations (aka the State) have monopolies over entire regions of space with control over all media, education, law enforcement, and employment. Imagine an entire city of millions of citizens run by Microsoft, where generations of families live, work, reproduce, and die. Add in some tube children, and we have entire generations of people being raised by the State, who have come to depend on it and its fellow citizens to ensure that everything runs smoothly. There's no doubt that within separate planets or moons, people develop certain sub-cultures, but there will be central values which all Caldari citizens will have in common.

  Meritocracy is a rather common phrase when used in association with the State, but to a degree all societies reward people on some level for their ability in their chosen profession. The reason why it's associated more frequently for Caldari is most likely the corporate culture they live in, where results make a tangible impact on profits, and corporations love those! It's how corporations are supposed to work in the real world too, but anyone who works in a corporate office environment will know office politics and interpersonal relationships can corrupt any true meritocracy. Cronyism and favoritism are the grease that lubricate any corporate machine and both the Gallente and the Caldari have their share of it.

  Xenophobia is a useful tool for the State for a variety of reasons. Corporations can keep inter-faction conflict to a minimum by diverting attention on the enemy rather than within. With control of the media, education and entertainment, the mega-corporations can make bold-faced lies to the public without reprisal or second-guessing and people will accept it as fact. Plus it makes sure that external cultural influences will have very little impact on the residents, who will naturally be wary of any influence from outsiders, thus ensuring its own masters are the only trusted sources of knowledge.

I really like the Caldari State. It's probably one of the most interesting factions in EVE lore, but tough to interact with unless you're 'in'.

[hellgremlin]

I'm rather glad the way the bloodlines stacked up. Civire get all the "heavy lifting" genes, while my bloodline gets the ones that make us look like Cary Grant.

[Gesakaarin]

Well, this evelopedia article answered most of my questions on the topic.

Especially these points:

"Because of the megacorporations defining their subjects’ identities, the differences between the Deteis and Civire lay more in social habits, formal interactions, and philosophical approaches to being Caldari. They can not be considered distinct ethnicities like the other groups in New Eden. Their characterizing social habits and mores are instead a product of their familial upbringing, emphasized as a constituent heritage of the wider Caldari identity, but otherwise not an important aspect of a citizen’s life. Those outside the State generally do not make a distinction (which the Caldari are more than happy to encourage). "

"Although the Civire and Deteis are proud of their heritage and the subtle social distinction between the two, both of these groups consider them to be of one Caldari race. The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion. The Caldari are monolingual for these reasons. Although dialects exist depending on location, the corporations ensure that these linguistic variations do not prevent all Caldari citizens from being capable of fully understanding one another."

"Similar to the Gallente, the Caldari tend to place minimal emphasis on ethnicity. They identify as Caldari first, their birth corporation second, and infrequently their ethnic heritage third."

"Cultural purity is thus intrinsically tied to racial purity amongst the Caldari. Individuals with parents of differing ethnicities are dubbed ‘halfbreeds’, and are victim of enormous social and institutional persecution in the State."

So I guess to summarize, the Civire and Deteis are distinct ethnicities (and there's strong social customs and conformity pressures to keep them distinct for cultural reasons) but there's also a much stronger emphasis on remaining loyal to your corporation and to being "Caldari" than your actual ethnicity.

I think that entire article really does point out how subtle and at times contradictory being Caldari actually is for the people that live in the State.