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[Silver Night]

Thought I'd make this to continue discussion from the 'Angels, Serpentis, and Syndicate' thread.

The cooperation between these three (and the friction or perhaps even outright hostility too) is fairly murky. To my own knowledge mostly established because of standings IG - the common rationale being that they have no choice but to avoid widespread fighting among themselves to counterbalance the Angel/Serp bloc.

Wanted to open it up for discussion. 

[Ghost Hunter]

I've understood it as a means of saying they're willing to stand together against the Empires and the Angels (Serpentis are too much of a joke, since the vast majority of their fleet is Angel based anyway). However, since there is no decisive global conflict its understandable if this pact or alliance is somewhat lax and shaky.

As I said in the thread you mentioned, I am damn near certain there was/is a border conflict between the Covenant and the Nation, as well as the Nation and the Angels. If that was from a Sansha mission it will probably be a while before I run into it again. However I'm inclined to think it was a system message from somewhere in Delve/Querious/Period Basis... I suppose I will have to explore around there.

Food for thought; I wonder if the Guristas buy stuff from the Sansha for their dangerous life style? Robotics seems to be a possibility, but the Guristas themselves seem quite tech savvy...

[Esna Pitoojee]

As I said in the thread you mentioned, I am damn near certain there was/is a border conflict between the Covenant and the Nation, as well as the Nation and the Angels. If that was from a Sansha mission it will probably be a while before I run into it again. However I'm inclined to think it was a system message from somewhere in Delve/Querious/Period Basis... I suppose I will have to explore around there.

I'd think the Blooders and Sanshas would have had to call for a ceasefire of some sort to prevent them from mutually wiping each other out (or at least seriously, seriously weakening each other) in an extended border war. Whether this would extend into a working relationship isn't so clear.

Food for thought; I wonder if the Guristas buy stuff from the Sansha for their dangerous life style? Robotics seems to be a possibility, but the Guristas themselves seem quite tech savvy...

If anything, I'd exect the Guristas to buy shield technology from the Sanshas.

Also, I'd be surprised if the Blooders didn't have a relationship with the Angels. The Angels have the ability to get the Blooders whatever they might want for their more questionable rituals, and the "no questions asked" policy as well.

[Silver Night]

Black market within the black market?

[Ghost Hunter]

As I said in the thread you mentioned, I am damn near certain there was/is a border conflict between the Covenant and the Nation, as well as the Nation and the Angels. If that was from a Sansha mission it will probably be a while before I run into it again. However I'm inclined to think it was a system message from somewhere in Delve/Querious/Period Basis... I suppose I will have to explore around there.

I'd think the Blooders and Sanshas would have had to call for a ceasefire of some sort to prevent them from mutually wiping each other out (or at least seriously, seriously weakening each other) in an extended border war. Whether this would extend into a working relationship isn't so clear.

Food for thought; I wonder if the Guristas buy stuff from the Sansha for their dangerous life style? Robotics seems to be a possibility, but the Guristas themselves seem quite tech savvy...

If anything, I'd exect the Guristas to buy shield technology from the Sanshas.

Also, I'd be surprised if the Blooders didn't have a relationship with the Angels. The Angels have the ability to get the Blooders whatever they might want for their more questionable rituals, and the "no questions asked" policy as well.

Until they fix the incredibly f*d up Sansha faction table to represent their new shield tanking focus, in my mind the Sansha are still masters of armor nanotechnology. Granted, they could be expanding into shield technology if they were buying it from the Guristas...

[Silver Night]

Pith stuff is what works best with current Sansha tech, after all. 

[Vikarion]

Hmm. Well, I've always seen the lines as being drawn along the border of Idealists/Practicals.

If you think about it, both the Angels and the Serpentis come across as factions devoted to profit. They don't do what they do for revenge, or for an ideal, or for a religion, but for money and power. It's why they get along so well, and why its so easy for others, such as the Thukkers, to work with them.

Contrast that with the other three:

The Guristas are rebelling against State/Fed culture, pursuing a near-anarchic individualism while still cooperating towards mutually beneficial goals, while doing their level best to take revenge on the systems that spawned them.

The Blood Raiders are originally heretical refugees, devoted towards pursuing a variant of Amarrian faith that demands blood, often the blood of those most capable of harming them. That's dedication.

The Sansha: dedicated towards (at least) establishing a utopia, an unfortunate casualty of which will be free will, and (at most) inducting the rest of the cluster into it.

With the Angels and Serpentis, they do what they do for money. With the Guristas, Sansha, and Blood Raiders, I'd argue that money is just the means - they need it, but it's subservient to their ultimate purposes.

[IzzyChan]

Sanshaz are teh bestest and have the spikeyest ships.  WTB moar sansha ship designs plz.  If CCP doesn't do it I'm going to have to. <3

[Hamish Grayson]

The Guristas are rebelling against State/Fed culture

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Organizations

The Guristas are traditional pirates in the sense that their operation is not based around some creed or ideology, but rather a plain and simple greed.

http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3881

[Silver Night]

There's some interesting points there - and there is actually a certain amount of contradiction in the wiki blurb you linked (No ideology but 'more honorable') - and I'm tempted to start a new thread about it. Particularly with the Auftragstaktik concept (maybe even two threads, one for Guristas and one for Auftragstaktik as part of a template for the social contract used in the State).

[Lillith Blackheart]

The Blooders and Sanshas have a common enemy: The Amarr. They also share borders. It is simply mutual interest.

The Guristas and Sansha have a common drive: Technology. Mutual interest again. And isn't the Gurista's leader downloaded into a computer? Given the Nation's Research, I can't imagine there's not a sizeable enough reason for the two of them to play mostly nice from that alone.



My confusion in the whole thing:

The Amarr were the most in bed with Sansha. The True Slave implants were a three-way joint project between Sansha's Nation, The Jove, and The Amarr. They were best friends. Right up to the end, in fact, as the Amarr were the last nation to join the coalition to avoid being ostracized (this is actually in the Sansha's Nation PF).

The Caldari were the next-most in bed with Sansha. He was a Caldari. The True Slave implants were built from Caldari parts. They had a fairly positive relationship, both due to his connections and also due to his focus on technological advancement, which is one of the Caldari ways.

The Minmatar almost lept out of their own skins with rage when they found out what Sansha was doing, having been leery of him to begin with, and having been slaves for so long they could not accept what was being done.

The Gallente were untrusting of Sansha and his Nation because he was Caldari, and then were the first to flip their shit when they found out about the True Slave program, and led the coalition of Empires against the Nation.


WHY ARE THE AMARR AND CALDARI SANSHA'S NATION'S PRIMARY ENEMIES????

No one, not even the old AURORA members or CCP's writers in any of the IRC chats have been able to answer that question for me.

Because it is a horrible hole in the story.

[Silver Night]

The Amarr because the Nation (currently) encroaches on their territory. The Caldari because publicly they certainly have to appear extremely anti-Nation or be accused of collusion, perhaps?

I don't think the hole is all that bad.

[The Cosmopolite]

Sansha's Nation not allowed feelings of vengeance?

My point being, it's not a one-way street is it?

Look at it from the point of view of the Nation considering the Caldari and Amarr their deadly foes precisely because, as they may see it, the Amarr and Caldari stabbed them in the back when the core empires joined as one to stamp the Nation out.

Cosmo

[Lillith Blackheart]

The hole is pretty bad. It's like a giant void in the middle of the backstory that came about because before the backstory was finalized, they stuck all the different pirate entities where their fittings would be most useful. i.e. Sansha between Amarr/Caldari, Guristas on Caldari, Angels between Matari/Gallente, etc.

Then created the stories for them later.

Sansha's Nation's story is still barely expanded upon, and when it was released it was a giant "DOUBLE-EWE TEE EFF" in comparison to where it goes.

They encroach on the Amarr Empire because that's where CCP happened to put them. The Caldari have the hatred for the same reason. After CCP put them there they gave them a really cool story that didn't coincide with their activities.

And no one ever really seemed to care or attempt to justify it.

And as to this:

The Caldari because publicly they certainly have to appear extremely anti-Nation or be accused of collusion, perhaps?

No. I asked. This is almost entirely perpetuated by myself, Dust Angel, Izzy, and Ghost, and stemmed from Dust and I coming up with an excuse.

Sansha's Nation not allowed feelings of vengeance?

My point being, it's not a one-way street is it?

Look at it from the point of view of the Nation considering the Caldari and Amarr their deadly foes precisely because, as they may see it, the Amarr and Caldari stabbed them in the back when the core empires joined as one to stamp the Nation out.

Possible, yes, however were this the case you'd think I'd have gotten an answer about it the numerous times I've asked. Therein lies the problem. When CCP doesn't know why something doesn't mesh with the backstory by appearances, there's a bit of a problem.

That I suppose is my primary issue.

Besides, were that the case they would have it worse for the Caldari than the Amarr; and they spend more time invading Amarr space than Caldari space, because the Caldari jumped ship way early, and the Amarr were very reluctant to turn away.

[Natalcya Katla]

The Amarr seem to have laid waste to an entire region in Sansha's Nation by themselves. Moreover, that region was Esoteria, which evidently was the big upper-crust civilian population center of Sansha's Nation, an easy target once the "Gauntlet of Stain" had been traversed. This traversing was probably made easier by the forces of the other Empires engaging Nation forces more directly in the much more heavily fortified Stain. To draw some sort of RL comparison (a contrived one, but it serves to illustrate the point), the Amarrians were dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki while the other Empires were fighting their way from island to island.

I'm mostly drawing these conclusions on the basis of the region description of Esoteria. The region description of Impass offers additional insights into the politics behind the facade regarding the pre-war Amarr/Sansha relationship.