Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Silas Vitalia]

Good points, Orange!

There are many ways to ruin someone without there being a show trial here.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

1) My understanding is that journalists can go to jail for publishing information obtained illegally.  The technicality is that they are jailed for contempt of court/obstruction after refusing to give up their source in sworn testimony.

2) I agree with Ulphus' very nuanced take on the variety of possible ways things went down.

3) If the UCMJ will govern the manner in which Manning will be tried, it would be nice if it was also the system that determined the conditions of his being held.

4) If it weren't for the fact that this level of force and determination is seemingly never applied in other criminal matters, I'd think nothing of it.  However, since he has both embarrassed numerous governments and now faces this level of zeal in securing his capture, I smell political retaliation taking place.

Also, the sudden appearance of "Anti-Leaks" and their attempt to quash the release of the most recent batch of StraFor emails containing information on the TrapWire program was followed up last night with their attempt to shut down bambuser, a livestreaming service that many citizen journalists were using to provide live coverage of the police activity at the embassy last night.  However, a number of them immediately shifted to alternate providers like Ustream.  Where Anti-leaks came from and has so rapidly come up with the ability to sustain DDoS attacks from thousands of (possibly simulated) computers is quite baffling to many groups who have been responsible for similar incidents (Anonymous, for example).

[GoGo Yubari]

I'm not inclined to believe that the charges are anything but bogus.

This is not the first time the US government tells the Swedish government to jump and they ask "how high?" Last time it happened they went crafting legislation to serve the dictated US agenda (it was to strike at Pirate Bay back then). I'm not too glad to realize that the right in my own country would be very likely to do the same.

But yay for Ecuador, I guess. Of course, the charges could be truthful, but this is a difficult thing. Do I believe justice would be served if he were to be tried and would in truth be innocent? Like I said, I'm not inclined to believe it.

[Seriphyn]

Only thing about laws concerning sexual assault in Sweden that I know has been hearsay from my friends in the form of advice.

The advice went 'Never fuck a swede and later get them pissed off at you, a woman there can decide a month after the act that she did not want to do it and you will get to be a rapist for the rest of your life.'

It sounds like the authorities may have very well been aware of this (the Brits especially), and are exploiting it to create the smoke-and-mirrors this seems to be.

I'm glad got some verification from a native Swede about Sweden, like the UK, being another US bitch state. That was something I wasn't previously sure about.

I think the reason the UK is not extraditing him to the US directly is because then it is very obvious that this is about witch-hunting. The authorities are trying very hard (and failing) to make it not seem like that. The British public aren't thick enough to buy it.

The USG bringing up "leaking classified material is bad!" is an attempt to bring up the most severe examples necessary to distract individuals from the fact the US government (like most governments) are full of hypocritical twits. Fox News completely ignored the morally compromising details about the leaks and, unsurprisingly, went with "our troops are in danger!". AFAIK, no one's died from it, and the CIA et al are more than competent enough to take the necessary measures to adapt and resecure themselves. It's been a couple years now anyway.

[Ken]

I, for one, just want to see Bradley Manning hang.

He is a functioning adult who made his own choices and should be held accountable for them.

Unfortunately, he won't, at least not to the full extent of military law.

Whatever the political, diplomatic, and military effects of the leaks and how you feel about their content or the validity of the case(s) against Assange (of course it's all a show to try and get him in US custody too), Manning swore an oath and was trusted by his country.

The system, his leaders, and his peers may have failed to help him (it can be harder than you think--I have been personally challenged by trying to lead and mentor young, disgruntled, and very intelligent servicemen before), but the decision to break both the law and faith with his country was ultimately his own.

[orange]

If you do not like being an ally of the United States, go be an ally of Russia or China so we, the United States, can stop worrying about the defense of Europe (outside of Russia).

The reason Assange isn't being extradited to the US is the United States has not actually charged him with any crime.

Here it is again in case you had trouble the first time.

The reason Assange isn't being extradited to the US is the United States has not actually charged him with any crime.

If I was in charge of a Secret Squirrel Operation to grab Assange, I would love for him to go some place like Ecuador.  When he got off the plane, he would be greeted by a member of the Ecuadorian Government, paid by my Secret Squirrel Operation.  The vehicle he got in would be driven by an agent, one whose parents are from Ecuador.  On the way to his South American hide-away, Assange would disappear from the planet.

South America is one of the easiest places for the US Intel Community to play.  The largest growing segment of the US population is... from South America.  Gringos (like myself or Assange) are going to standout.

In London or Sweden (Gottenberg or Stockholm), it is really, really hard to make him just disappear.   They are hi-tech societies where he can both blend in and yet be tracked everywhere he goes by the media, his real shield against the possibility of extraordinary redention.

[Ciarente]

Not to mention that Ecuador currently has a blogger they had previously given political asylum to imprisoned awaiting extradition to Belarus, where he faces the death penalty for blogging about corruption in the Belarus government ... not a country I'd pick if I actually were concerned about being extradited to the US for what I'd publish.

[Milo Caman]

Not to mention that Ecuador currently has a blogger they had previously given political asylum to imprisoned awaiting extradition to Belarus, where he faces the death penalty for blogging about corruption in the Belarus government ... not a country I'd pick if I actually were concerned about being extradited to the US for what I'd publish.

Not that it's on the same level, but the UK -> US extradition arrangements we have here are similarly ridiculous.

[Lyn Farel]

I, for one, just want to see Bradley Manning hang.

He is a functioning adult who made his own choices and should be held accountable for them.

Unfortunately, he won't, at least not to the full extent of military law.

Whatever the political, diplomatic, and military effects of the leaks and how you feel about their content or the validity of the case(s) against Assange (of course it's all a show to try and get him in US custody too), Manning swore an oath and was trusted by his country.

The system, his leaders, and his peers may have failed to help him (it can be harder than you think--I have been personally challenged by trying to lead and mentor young, disgruntled, and very intelligent servicemen before), but the decision to break both the law and faith with his country was ultimately his own.

Well at least, it would put to an end the psychological torture he seems to have been the subject of.

If you do not like being an ally of the United States, go be an ally of Russia or China so we, the United States, can stop worrying about the defense of Europe (outside of Russia).

Because now the US are defending us ? Oh dear.   

I don't even know why the hell we re-joined NATO.

[Desiderya]

If you do not like being an ally of the United States, go be an ally of Russia or China so we, the United States, can stop worrying about the defense of Europe (outside of Russia).

Sounds a bit cold-war era to me.

[orange]

If you do not like being an ally of the United States, go be an ally of Russia or China so we, the United States, can stop worrying about the defense of Europe (outside of Russia).

Because now the US are defending us ? Oh dear.   

I don't even know why the hell we re-joined NATO.

Not exactly sure which European country you are from, but even France, which left the Military Component of NATO in the 1970s because it didn't want to have to ask Britain and the United States for permission to launch its nuclear weapons, rejoined the military command structure of NATO and benefits from the Alliance.

The United States has for the past 65+ years, included the defense of its European allies as part of its overall strategic footing. 

Even to project military power into Europe's own backyard (Libya) required the support of the United States, despite a coalition of willing European nations.

NATO Sees Flaws in Air Campaign Against Qaddafi

a confidential NATO assessment paints a sobering portrait of the alliance’s ability to carry out such campaigns without significant support from the United States.

The report concluded that the allies struggled to share crucial target information, lacked specialized planners and analysts, and overly relied on the United States for reconnaissance and refueling aircraft.

The vast majority of NATO members do not spend up to the Alliance's target of 2% GDP on their defense (Aviation Week, another discussion)

So yes, the United States invest in the defense of Europe as we recognize our responsibility to answer the call in an Article 5 situation - like Russia invading or attacking neighbor because it does something they don't like.

If you do not like being an ally of the United States, go be an ally of Russia or China so we, the United States, can stop worrying about the defense of Europe (outside of Russia).

Sounds a bit cold-war era to me.

Well it is, the Bear is waking up.

Russia has started flying its Bombers along its old Cold War routes.

The world is still very polarized and Russia and China are two big players (generally in opposition to the US).
There hasn't been a No-Fly Zone setup over Syria because Russia and China do not support the action.

They both are making significant investments in their own Military Technology base. Both have recently unveiled what appear to be Stealth Fighters.

Russia went to war with its neighbor Georgia, demonstrating a capacity and willingness to project power across its borders in 2008.

In April 2007, Estonia came under cyber attack in the wake of relocation of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn.[70] The largest part of the attacks were coming from Russia and from official servers of the authorities of Russia.[71] In the attack, ministries, banks, and media were targeted.

Estonia is a member of NATO and Georgia is not.

[Desiderya]

I don't want to derail that discussion, but to me, this sounds like good, old-fashioned fearmongering.

I do agree with you on the point of Ecuador being a very questionable choice, though.

[Lyn Farel]

Benefits from the alliance. Depends what you mean by "benefit", I guess.

If you do not like being an ally of the United States, go be an ally of Russia or China so we, the United States, can stop worrying about the defense of Europe (outside of Russia).

Sounds a bit cold-war era to me.

Yeah I got the same reaction. Good old fashioned americanism, I would say.

I would rather go back to the original subject before it turns into some kind of military penis waving.

[Ken]

I would rather go back to the original subject before it turns into some kind of military penis waving.

Best kind of penis waving though, imo.

Discussing NATO and grand strategy is a topic worthy of a separate thread perhaps?

[orange]

I do agree with you on the point of Ecuador being a very questionable choice, though.

I think the US Government actually stopped caring about Assange months ago.  He and his organization are actually no longer a credible threat.

Grabbing him does nothing for the US and is a waste of resources better spent on finding the next information broker and his sources before they leak stuff that matters.

The Intelligence Community has already made its play and won.

Assange is paranoid to the point of making decisions like running to the Ecuadorian Embassy versus going to Sweden to answer questions regarding the two sexual encounters.  Does a Swedish conviction of being a sexual predator matter in Australia?

The process of extradition to Sweden for questioning took time.  Time in which he was able to imagine himself as a spymaster being targeted by MI6 and the CIA.

He was targeted and the threat of extradition was put in place (for him and those in the wings) to build paranoia.  Mission complete, threat neutralized.