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Author Topic: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador  (Read 10366 times)

Jade Constantine

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #45 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:02 »

Ulphus, same to you maaan! If the UK defies a centuries-old treaty and revokes the Ecuador embassy's diplomatic immunity just to get a guy based on mere rape/sexual assault charges, then it definitely has everything to do with how forces in the US want him dead. It sets a precedent for any embassy being raided by the host country for anything.

That's a major uproot of the international system for something on a minute scale...but then, I believe it has nothing to do with that minute charge, just because of how disproportionate that potential action by the UK is.

Frankly I was shocked that Hague made the suggestion he did today - I can't imagine the kind of secret threat the USA has brought against the UK cabinet to get such an appalling statement out of even a shitty tory government minister. I'm also astonished that the opposition is not getting involved in what could be greatest political scandal of the year.

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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #46 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:05 »

Ulphus, same to you maaan! If the UK defies a centuries-old treaty and revokes the Ecuador embassy's diplomatic immunity just to get a guy based on mere rape/sexual assault charges, then it definitely has everything to do with how forces in the US want him dead. It sets a precedent for any embassy being raided by the host country for anything.

That's a major uproot of the international system for something on a minute scale...but then, I believe it has nothing to do with that minute charge, just because of how disproportionate that potential action by the UK is.

Frankly I was shocked that Hague made the suggestion he did today - I can't imagine the kind of secret threat the USA has brought against the UK cabinet to get such an appalling statement out of even a shitty tory government minister. I'm also astonished that the opposition is not getting involved in what could be greatest political scandal of the year.

Threat? We are super bestest friends!!    :lol:
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Jade Constantine

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #47 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:06 »

I don't think it's 'conspiracy theory' so much as the obvious intent of some of our authorities to have him sit in jail for the rest of his life.

The government wants to say loud and in a crystal clear voice 'down with this sort of thing' Do not fuck with this particular issue or we will come pull you out of wherever you are anywhere in the world and your life as you know it will be over'

But no government in the western world outside US (and especially not europe) is going to be able to repeat that line without being crucified in the next election - for the coalition government in the UK it would be an impossible statement to parrot - hence Hague lying his face off on the TV this afternoon. The suspicion this is the motivation has in all likelihood the potential to bring down the UK government (which I could see happening *anyway*) if Assange was sent to Sweden and immediately collected by the rendition team with black bags and cattle prods.)

*NB to non UK readers. At present the UK is governed by a coalition of Tories (right wing) and Liberal Democrats (ostensibly centrist) and the Libdems support base is generally middle class intellectual academics and people not well inclined to knee-jerk nationalist jack booting of the kind USA is attempting in this matter.



« Last Edit: 16 Aug 2012, 15:09 by Jade Constantine »
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Ulphus

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #48 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:08 »

Frankly I was shocked that Hague made the suggestion he did today - I can't imagine the kind of secret threat the USA has brought against the UK cabinet to get such an appalling statement out of even a shitty tory government minister. I'm also astonished that the opposition is not getting involved in what could be greatest political scandal of the year.

Threat? We are super bestest friends!!    :lol:

Because a State's best friend is their poodle?
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #49 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:10 »

While I'd admit to my share of tinfoil on this case in general, it does actually sound as though there's a case to answer under Swedish law, and even a defining legal test case about the particular aggravating circumstance.

Just because it seems awfully convenient doesn't mean the case lacks merit in its own right. The complicating issues seem to be a combination of the differences between Swedish and British process about when charges are laid, and a (possibly somewhat justified) lack of trust that there's good faith about where the questioning phase happens.

(Piecing things together it sounds like the claim is that Assange and SW had consensual sex using a condom, which was a condition of SW's consent. While she was sleeping he then initiated sex with her again, without using a condom. The earlier case with AA sounds a bit more murky[1]. Scroll down to the answer at http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8498/is-the-julian-assange-sexual-assault-charge-merely-alleging-condom-non-use for quotes from the warrant.)


[1] Edited to add: "sounds a bit more murky" because I haven't got my head around what's alleged, not meaning to comment on the gravity of the allegations.
« Last Edit: 16 Aug 2012, 15:32 by Matariki Rain »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #50 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:11 »

Frankly I was shocked that Hague made the suggestion he did today - I can't imagine the kind of secret threat the USA has brought against the UK cabinet to get such an appalling statement out of even a shitty tory government minister. I'm also astonished that the opposition is not getting involved in what could be greatest political scandal of the year.

Threat? We are super bestest friends!!    :lol:



Because a State's best friend is their poodle?

Don't be mean! We totally heart you guys over here.  You guys directly created a good 75% of our best popular culture over the last 75 years, you make the best sitcoms, and we've totally got your back if the French invade.
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Ulphus

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #51 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:20 »

As I understand it, his claims in court are that he will be extradited from Sweden for things which are not crimes in the UK. If the US and Sweden admitted that ahead of time, then the UK might well not extradite him to Sweden.

Thinking about this some more, it does seem rather odd to me that the US doesn't just try to extradite Mr Assange from Britain, seeing as the UK seems quite happy to extradite their own citizens to the USA for activities that were not crimes inside the UK... This is a defence I've seen written by a Swede which does seem valid on the face of it.


(ps: replying to your own posts isn't a sign of insanity, right?)
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Casiella

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #52 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:22 »

The allegations are way more serious than "I only consented to sex with a condom and the condom broke so there wasn't consent for that." If he did what he's accused of doing, including having sex with a sleeping woman (who by definition cannot consent) and continuing to rub himself on a woman when told to stop, then that's pretty serious.

All that said, anybody who thinks that the UK government is doing all of this because of rape allegations has blinders on. We can only wish that western democracies (or any other national governments) took such a hard line on sexual assault.
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Ulphus

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #53 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:26 »

Because a State's best friend is their poodle?

Don't be mean! We totally heart you guys over here.  You guys directly created a good 75% of our best popular culture over the last 75 years, you make the best sitcoms, and we've totally got your back if the French invade.

I'm not sure we can claim "Xena warrior princess" is entirely from NZ, even if it was filmed here, and the Lord of the Rings, while quite spectacular isn't really the best of popular culture.

When the French ran a terrorist op* here, we caught some of them. We had to give them back though, something to do with them being out of season... Not really an invasion, I know.

It was nice of the US to give our navy great berths in downtown Hawaii during the recent naval exercises though**.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

** http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/the-internaut/new-zealand-sailors-snubbed-at-pearl-harbour-find-solace-at-hooters/

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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #54 on: 16 Aug 2012, 15:35 »

Because a State's best friend is their poodle?

Don't be mean! We totally heart you guys over here.  You guys directly created a good 75% of our best popular culture over the last 75 years, you make the best sitcoms, and we've totally got your back if the French invade.

I'm not sure we can claim "Xena warrior princess" is entirely from NZ, even if it was filmed here, and the Lord of the Rings, while quite spectacular isn't really the best of popular culture.

When the French ran a terrorist op* here, we caught some of them. We had to give them back though, something to do with them being out of season... Not really an invasion, I know.

It was nice of the US to give our navy great berths in downtown Hawaii during the recent naval exercises though**.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

** http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/the-internaut/new-zealand-sailors-snubbed-at-pearl-harbour-find-solace-at-hooters/

Off topic a gentleman I went to school with just married a former "Hooters Girl calendar girl" and it's exactly what you imagine.  The whole thing is kind of surreal and sad.

Well the brits are still kings of the broadcast television business; all we have here in the US on braoadcast are revamps of 5 year old british shows, and they still do super well.

Mainly it would be contributions to global popular music.  The British are the absolute experts of taking esoteric American Black music (the Blues, Rock and Roll, Techno), and digesting them, re-molding, and then re-releasing them back into popular consciousness x100. 



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lallara zhuul

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #55 on: 16 Aug 2012, 16:03 »

Only thing about laws concerning sexual assault in Sweden that I know has been hearsay from my friends in the form of advice.

The advice went 'Never fuck a swede and later get them pissed off at you, a woman there can decide a month after the act that she did not want to do it and you will get to be a rapist for the rest of your life.'

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orange

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #56 on: 16 Aug 2012, 16:18 »

To give more of what I'd perceive an our general "American" point of view on this, is that the general public is quite alright with all manor of whistle-blowing and fighting injustice, etc, but we have a few 'sacred cows' in the public discourse that get special treatment (or collective myopia depending on your politics) and the military is one of them. In other words releasing internal memos from some politician is questionable or perhaps partisan but releasing classified military documents will get you a quick trip to the bottom end of public opinion from nearly all members of the Republic.
Eh, sorta.

Like I said, the New York Times, Aviation Week, the Washington Post, etc publish classified material, including military secrets every so often and so long as their source isn't named, no one goes to prison.

A classic story is someone being assigned to a classified military project and later reading about all the details in an issue of Aviation Week.

I have not read (nor will I read*) the published cables, but some of the "headlines" from them seemed to be "well duh" to anyone who spends a few minutes reading about regional history on Wikipedia.

*I am obligated to protect information I know is classified.

As I understand it, his claims in court are that he will be extradited from Sweden for things which are not crimes in the UK. If the US and Sweden admitted that ahead of time, then the UK might well not extradite him to Sweden.

Thinking about this some more, it does seem rather odd to me that the US doesn't just try to extradite Mr Assange from Britain, seeing as the UK seems quite happy to extradite their own citizens to the USA for activities that were not crimes inside the UK... This is a defence I've seen written by a Swede which does seem valid on the face of it.

I don't think the US is actually going to extradite him from Sweden nor does the DoJ really want to try him in an Espionage Case.  If the US Government should win the case (and the appeals), it sets a precedent that reporters/journalist/etc can be arrested and tried for publishing interesting information that the government (or parts there of) would rather not be in the open.  It setups up a power struggle and removes the ability of Military Members/Bureaucrats/Congressional Staffers/Representatives/Senators/Presidents to leak classified information anonymously (or not) and allow the press to publish the story (with or without their names).  It creates a real legal minefield for political bosses, who may not be that bright.

From a real politik perspective better to have the man ruined and sitting in a Swedish prison for sexual assault for a few years (and terrified of men in black suits/pajamas) than attempt to have an Espionage Trial in Virginia.

Sadly, the operational fallout from Wikileaks is that it is harder for US Government Agencies to share information they have collected.  In the wake of 9/11 attacks,  there was a lot of work done to lower the barriers between compartmentalized information.  In the wake of Wikileaks that was reversed.  I wish I could find the article that talked about that being one of Assange's goals.   This means that if the CIA has good operational intelligence about X and the FBI is investigating Y (which is related to X), they may not figure out that they are connected until Z happens  :(
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Casiella

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #57 on: 16 Aug 2012, 16:37 »

Which is odd, because good IT controls would have kept Pvt Manning not just from being able to reach 265k classified documents he didn't need but also from burning them to a CD-R labeled "Lady Gaga" and walking out of there.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #58 on: 16 Aug 2012, 16:48 »

My point is I can imagine many different ways this could have happened, some of which leave Mr Assange as a sex criminal, some of which make him an insensitive arsehole, and some of which make him someone who's expectations in bed were from a different culture to his sexual partners which caused all sorts of misunderstandings.

This.
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orange

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Re: Julian Assange granted asylum by Ecuador
« Reply #59 on: 16 Aug 2012, 17:07 »

Which is odd, because good IT controls would have kept Pvt Manning not just from being able to reach 265k classified documents he didn't need but also from burning them to a CD-R labeled "Lady Gaga" and walking out of there.
It is a challenge to implement good IT controls across multiple agencies & companies (or even governments) across the world and ensure useful information is shared in a timely fashion.

The real check on Pfc Manning would have been for his commanders to listen to his supervisor and revoked his clearance and not deployed him.

Part of the challenge for the Intelligence community is identifying a Need-to-Know.  Without "ready" access to a lot of information for analyst to sort through for information pertinent to their commanders/customers, the information may be overcome-by-events and be stale by the time it is recognized as being pertinent.  Something inane to one observer may be critical to another operation.
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