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[Bastian Valoron]

Frankly, the I-am-untouchable-god is one of the biggest turnoffs of eve for me. You're an untouchable god? Really? Youre 1000 bajillion times smarter, richer, and more powerful than everyone else?

Then whats the point of RPing with you?

If you count out the veteran players, I actually haven't seen many of these untouchable, 1000 bajillion times richer than anyone else characters around. It might be quite an interesting change. The point of RP could be opportunism, scamming, admiration, zealotry, projection of yourself etc. It's even possible to play disbelief while accepting the premises of the other player.

[Merdaneth]

I've war-decced a 25+ members corporation with a single-man corp utilizing cruisers, two BC's and one T1-named fitted BS for having one Sani-sabik member being dumb on the IGS. If a corp of high-SP high-asset 5-year player and his corp of 2 guys want to deck a 5-man RP corp for flapping their gums, IC or OOC, it may very well happen. They hold the power to inconvenience and/or blow up those 5 guys for weeks because one or more said something that, in hind-sight, was a bad idea.

I've decced RP enemies when I was in my one-man-corp. You kill a few PvP noobs, kill a few more experience PvPers who don't know your repetoire of tricks yet, and then get either confronted with vastly superior numbers, station camping ships with enough tank for safe de-agression or, more often, simply people staying docked or moving off in separate directions in pods and whatnot.

The more experienced your opponents, the lower the odds you can inconvenience them. Vast isk reserves, use of alts, meta-game knowledge and no real need to undock to conduct one's business sort of ensure that.

[Silas Vitalia]

I've war-decced a 25+ members corporation with a single-man corp utilizing cruisers, two BC's and one T1-named fitted BS for having one Sani-sabik member being dumb on the IGS. If a corp of high-SP high-asset 5-year player and his corp of 2 guys want to deck a 5-man RP corp for flapping their gums, IC or OOC, it may very well happen. They hold the power to inconvenience and/or blow up those 5 guys for weeks because one or more said something that, in hind-sight, was a bad idea.

I've decced RP enemies when I was in my one-man-corp. You kill a few PvP noobs, kill a few more experience PvPers who don't know your repetoire of tricks yet, and then get either confronted with vastly superior numbers, station camping ships with enough tank for safe de-agression or, more often, simply people staying docked or moving off in separate directions in pods and whatnot.

The more experienced your opponents, the lower the odds you can inconvenience them. Vast isk reserves, use of alts, meta-game knowledge and no real need to undock to conduct one's business sort of ensure that.

Exactly my point.  How we reconcile our self-perceived 'power' with the reality of not being able to do all that much to other capsuleers unless they let us... "there's the rub" as they say.

I think what we find is that reputation and respect (or fear) amongst our peers is more of a motivation than anything else (IC and OOC)

[Casiella]

So hire mercenaries, or infiltrators if they rarely undock. Power through ISK.

Yes, I know this is controversial for various reasons, but if one RPer hires somebody to infiltrate another corp, how the infiltrator does it is not the first RPer's concern IMO.

[Hamish Grayson]

In my widely recognized as humble opinion, the learning skills were the thing that turned a human into post-human/demi-god.   With them removed from the game and PF the demi-god description might not be so apt anymore.    Maybe we pick them up before graduation these days?   

I suppose an argument gradual build up of skills could be the turning point.   We aren't super smart or fast any longer but we still contain vast amounts of knowledge.    Some of the older capsuleers probably have as much knowledge as several dozen baselines if not even reaching the triple digits.

Before a certain Amarrian CPU made out of meat starts telling me I'm doing it wrong:

Logic
SOCT Advanced intelligence training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students develop an intuitive understanding of complex patterns and are able to grasp esoteric concepts with incredible ease.

Presence
SOCT Advanced social consciousness training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop heightened mental sensitivity, to the point of being able to sense the surface mood and emotions of a person.

Focus
SOCT Advanced self-discipline training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students are able to remain focused and alert under extreme pressure, and can ignore pain and fatigue for extended periods of time.

Clarity
SOCT Advanced awareness training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. These students develop almost superhuman sensory abilities and can react to stimuli so fast that, to the untrained eye, it almost seems as if they can predict the future.

I'd like to add that these abilities were achieved once a capsuleer had added ten points to their baseline stats, and before they added up to 50% more skill points with attribute  implants.    If a capsuleer could react to stimuli so fast he or she seem to be clairvoyant, how much more impressive would this superhuman ability be with a +5 Perception implant?

If the learning skills actually enchanced a character's speed, IQ etc as per the above PR then isn't unreasonable to then assume that when the character reaches level five in biology, science, neurotoxin recovery, and Nanite control that he has the knowledge a skills of a master physician?   Or is master in the field of quantum physics able to write papers and perform experiments once he or she has quantum physics to level five?     

 

[Hamish Grayson]

Frankly, the I-am-untouchable-god is one of the biggest turnoffs of eve for me. You're an untouchable god? Really? Youre 1000 bajillion times smarter, richer, and more powerful than everyone else?

Then whats the point of RPing with you?

Because ingame conflict is the best fuel for RP and pitting your character against an untouchable enemy, succeed or fail, is perfect story material.    How boring would Starwars be without the untouchable Vader or Harry Potter without unbeatable Voldemort?

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=245.0

[BloodBird]

In the older days, IIRC, you begin with 8 in all scores, then you recieve so-and-so many points to assign, likely a reflection of where the more primitive training in the academies of the day went. You chose this yourself ofc so you likely had a say in what you focus your time into.

By the time you launched off for the first time the first thing a well-planned toon would do is earn up the isk for the learning skills then plug them in and spend plenty of valuable time early on training them, perhaps springled in with soem ACTUALLY useful skills to enhance ship skills, support, weapons/industry etc. Eventually your basic-level learning skills were done and later perhaps you got the more advanced ones. Then in between you would get skills for implants, and possibly working all thsi time to amass the isk needed to pay for all this - not an easy feat when your low on skillpoints and most of them are learning skills that don't help at all on more 'practical' skills. They simply cut down the time you needed for those practical skills, meaning you could be several months into your career before you even kicked off the training for the things you wanted ot do in the first place.

These days, you start off with the equivilent of the basic and advanced skills on level 5, a serious save from a huge isk, time and interest sink for the fresh players and a great time and effort saver for the up-and-coming characters, who do in fact plan to train 'more important' skills. It makes perfect sense that not only did they train you in these skills in the academies or their equal training methods to gain the same level of mental focus, to boost your stats from the "average-baseliner-standard" of 8 across the board up to an average of 18 - a boost on over 100% from the basic level - they did not even bother to list the skills in your official records.

With this in mind, the 'god-like' attributes are not removed from you just because you are saved from manually getting and training the skills, it simply means everyone is equally god-like now because they start on equal foting when it comes to intuitive learning skills.

[Hamish Grayson]

boost your stats from the "average-baseliner-standard" of 8 across the board up to an average of 18

After the Black Mountain chronicle, I started to wonder if in order to make the cut for capsuleer you need to have the required genetic markers, not mind-lock and have a minimum of eight in each of attributes.

With this in mind, the 'god-like' attributes are not removed from you just because you are saved from manually getting and training the skills, it simply means everyone is equally god-like now because they start on equal foting when it comes to intuitive learning skills.

That's probably the best way to handwave the change.  The game, from a mechanics point of view is better off without the learning skill, I just wish somebody, anybody at CCP had realized how critically important removing them was to the Eve's fiction and had written even the tiniest IC blurb or even made a wiki article.  I mean this is something vital to the nature of capsuleerdom and they either can't be assed to type out a single sentence or are so out of touch with their own story line that they didn't realize the significance.

[BloodBird]

CCP appears to be generally out-of-touch with/don't generally give a toss about their own PF.

What else is new, I wonder.

[Casiella]

This seems more like a case of what's important to some RPers and what's important to others. After all, it only took a few minutes of thinking to come up with the explanation "oh now they just do it in core capsuleer training", so why worry about it?

[Vendrin]

Just a note hellgremlin there are a few capsuleers who are actually happy to be transhumanists, and you should know that already. We don't show much up on the igs, but mostly cause we are just bored with it. This is what I posted last time I was there.

As a capsuleer we can see gamma rays, perceive x-rays, sense dark matter, feel the wind of a supernova blow over us! I can not even properly express what we as caspuleers experience to a mortal, as it is impossible to conceptualize such complex emotions and sensations in the limited language we use! But you would trap yourself in your bodies prison, to "walk on a beach." Do us all a favor and stay there with the rest of the dregs.

[hellgremlin]

There it is, that's exactly the attitude I was looking for. We are so far beyond human, and so much more, and yet our squabbles are still confined to that limited, waterlogged, bipedal omnivore scale.

[Merdaneth]

There it is, that's exactly the attitude I was looking for. We are so far beyond human, and so much more, and yet our squabbles are still confined to that limited, waterlogged, bipedal omnivore scale.

Au contraire. Without health, life, food and a home to squabble about, what is left? Give someone ultimate power and knowledge, and you'll probably find he has no reason to squabble about anything.

What do most people who have a godlike amount of wealth in our own world squabble about? If you don't need to struggle for material things or even life and health, you'll likely start to struggle for intangibles as love and respect.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Also note that many capsuleers may be in denial about their godhood, or even locked in a bitter struggle with it. They might not want to be a god, for whatever reason.

Aldrith, for example, detests most capsuleers for their power and inhumanity, and wants nothing more than to kick their egos into the dirt until they realize they are still just stupid humans despite all the pod gives them. If Istvaan is a king and kingmaker, Aldrith is a kingslayer.

Others might just want to completely ignore thier power, either out of fear for what they might become if they take too hard a look at what they are, or because they simply like to fancy themselves as still human. Remember, most capsuleers haven't been 'living the life' for more than a few years, and very well might not be used to the concepts surrounding their position, or might not be comfortable enough with it to really examine who they have become and what they want to do. I think it's perfectly normal that many capsuleers would cling to their humanity.

[Gottii]

On the other hand, Aldy has god-like  (goddess-like?) hair.