Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Desiderya]

Jev North, I like the response.

To the discussion at hand:

In addition, if the Caldari civilian population was in no danger, than the decision to evacuate them was insane. Left on the planet, they'd cause far more trouble for the Federation than they would cause the military of the nascent State. Evacuating them nearly cost the Caldari the war - why the need for so hasty, dangerous, and foolhardy an operation? The only explanation to hand is that the Caldari population faced an existential threat.

This is the most striking argument when talking about the size of the bombardment. 'The Breakout' supplies it with plenty of lines.

[Hamish Grayson]

But if 'Caldari' means the ruling corps (as I think)

Many of them didn't exist until after the founding of the Federation and they weren't the government yet.     As stated elsewhere some of us believe that the Caldari, who were relatively primitive when the Gallente landed, copied the corporate system from the Gallente because they believed it was the source of the strength.   The Caldari would have seen Gallente forcing their control  over the new corporations as a deliberate attempt to keep the Caldari weak so that they could be dominated.

Finally if the Federation really wanted to commit genocide, why bother invading?

According to the chrons, entire Caldari bloodlines were rendered extinct.   How do you define genocide?

[Altarr Orkot]

According to the chrons, entire Caldari bloodlines were rendered extinct.   How do you define genocide?

What chronicle(s)?  My Google-fu is failing.  Also I'm not denying assertions you guys have made.

[Mithfindel]

There is one reason to evacuate the population even if there was no danger of genocide: The need for work force. It can be assumed that the majority of the Caldari population was on Caldari Prime, but - now that the planet could be blockaded by the Gallente - suddently the majority of the industrial sites necessary to fight the war were on the colonies.

Looking at the rank quotes:

The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.

- President of the Federation, Arlette Villers. CE 23154.6.2

Things start to roll on early June.

Slowly but surely we are betraying the legacy left to us, the children of the Raata. The light of the Caldari spirit grows ever darker under the encroaching shadow of our would-be masters. Our very identity as a people is being subsumed by the Federation and we must act to preserve it.

- Excerpt from a National Address, delivered by Kaalakiota CEO Matias Sobaseki. CE 23154.6.26

Caldari don't seem to be very happy. This from late June.

The laws of the Federation were written for the good of the many. Not the good of the Gallente nor the good of the Caldari. Hopefully, we can help them remember this.

- Gallente Senator Fronte Belliare, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21

This may or may not coincide with the secret colonies being discovered and the Federation wanting control of them.

It is rather strange that the good of the many seems to constantly coincide with whatever policies weaken the Caldari, the Intaki, and the Mannar and keep them under the heel of the Gallente.

- Caldari Senator Kiriusu Otenga, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21

In any case, during the five months, debate has heated up.

We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari, and so you leave us with no choice.

- Excerpt from the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22

...and there we go. At least five months of discussion, and Caldari secede.

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

- Excerpt from the Federation Presidents response to the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22

The Federation, as we know, doesn't accept the secession.

They seek to fragment the Federation for their own selfish pride. Take their planet, strangle it and let's see how proud they stand after.

- Vice Admiral Eisen Piroit, Addressing the Senate. CE 23154.11.28

After a week, the Federation Navy uses blockade...

We survived on this world for thousands of years without the Gallente. Do they think we will starve now?

- Wiyrkomi CEO Taaiko Wiyrkomi, Response to the Gallente blockade of Caldari Prime. CE 23154.11.30

...it's not very effective.

They will retaliate. We must be prepared.

- Vice-Admiral Orlan Mito, Caldari Navy, Morning after the Nouvelle Rouvenor attack. CE 23155.1.14

After one and a half months of blockade, Nouvelle Rouvenor happens.

A moment of silence is not enough. For their crimes, we must make the Caldari silence permanent.

- Luc Duvailer, newly sworn in President of the Federation, after the Nouvelle Rouvenor attack. CE 23155.1.15

The Ultranationalists seem to be A-OK with genociding some Caldari.

[04:00][Command] Orbital Bombardment to begin T minus one hour
[04:05][Command] Fleet begin deployment into close orbit
[04:40][Command] Begin Lock Targets. Orbital spread. Pattern Delta-Four-Two
[04:59][Command] Admiral Signals: For the people of Nouvelle Rouvenor
[05:00][Command] Authorize weapons free. Execute bombardment

- Fleet Log, Caldari Prime Orbital Bombardment. CE 23155.1.17

First strike seems to follow some pattern.

Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest.

- CEP response to Federation demands for unconditional surrender after initial bombardment of Caldari Prime. CE 23155.1.18

However, there seem to be a significant amount of survivors. This would seem to signal a change towards total warfare.

As we make the tea, you must take it. The Caldari way demands it.

- Matias Sobaseki, CEO of Kaalakiota, Morning of Reasoning. CE 23155.2.10

This far, there has been those corporations amongst the Caldari who have supported staying in the Federation and opening negotiations. After Caldari Prime has endured the siege (and assumably bombardment) for over three weeks, the Morning of Reasoning happens.

The savages have murdered the only ones with any sense among them. They lit the fire, now they will burn in it.

- Senator Fronte Belliare, Morning of Reasoning. CE 23155.2.10

The Morning of Reasoning seems to have intensified the conflict even more.

This Federation is now at war. We have no time for dissenters, our Admirals will follow the will of this government or we will replace them.

- Hume Roir, newly appointed Gallente Minster of Defence. CE 23155.2.18

A week after the Morning of Reasoning, the Gallente seem to have some war weariness, but the U-nats are still in control.

Their fleet is in total control of Caldari Prime's Orbit. We're heavily outnumbered and outgunned. To be able to effectively evacuate the population we need exactly one month of complete orbital control. Ideas anyone?

- Admiral Orlan Mito, Caldari High Command Session. CE 23155.2.21

Evacuation of the population starts almost two weeks after the Morning of Reasoning. Bombardment has lasted for four weeks and the siege for over eleven weeks. The Breakout chronicle tells us that the Caldari need one month / four weeks to evacuate. The Caldari counterattack drives the Gallente from the orbit and there's even talk about bombing Gallente Prime.

High command need more time to complete the evacuation. We shall provide.

- Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba’s personal log entry #21A231. CE 23155.3.7

Four weeks after the Morning of Reasoning and little over two weeks into the evacuation. The Breakout tells us that initially, the Caldari were successful at taking control of their orbit. About half of the Caldari population is still on the planet, and the Federation is ready to counterattack. Tovil-Toba disrupts the counterattack by attacking the Gallente ships and facilities on the orbit of Gallente Prime.

He is a cunning one this Tovil-Toba, but he can not evade us forever and his destruction will serve as an example to all Caldari.

- Admiral Eisen Piroit, Gallente Navy. CE 23155.3.10

Initially, the campaign was quite successful, but Tovil-Toba's resources are few.

Non-essential personnel, abandon ship.

- Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba’s last command. CE 23155.3.15

The evacuation is almost complete, but the fleet under Tovil-Toba has been destroyed. We know what happens.

Hueromont was our failure yes - our failure to strike harder and strike faster to destroy those traitorous bastards where they stand.

- Luc Duvailer, President of the Federation. CE 23155.3.16

Despite the Ultranationalist words, Tovil-Toba's last action caused a change in government for the Gallente.

...and of Caldari bloodlines, I cannot remember chrons either, but essentially, the lack of other bloodlines from Caldari Prime has been hand-waved as the bloodlines being assimilated into Deteis and Civire due to them being minority groups in the new post-evacuation colonies.

Edit: Fixed one quote. (Tags instead of quotation marks.) Quotations collected from Caldari and Gallente militia rank descriptions.

[Desiderya]

+1 For that collection of PF quotes, Mithfindel

[Hamish Grayson]

Yea, the timeline is great!

[Altarr Orkot]

According to the chrons, entire Caldari bloodlines were rendered extinct.   How do you define genocide?

What chronicle(s)?  My Google-fu is failing.  Also I'm not denying assertions you guys have made.

This one: http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=dec01-01 ? That doesn't say anything about bloodlines actually being 'rendered extinct', just that people got over racism?  But I'm sure it demonstrates genocide.  The numbers provided by this chron http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-dec-02 state that hundreds of thousands were genocided by the bombardment.

[Alain Colcer]

Just to add an interesting bit to this very interesting thread, while Zag and I often engaged in "political analysis" of the federation, its government and corporations

We figured that Caldari Corporations were vertically integrated, they did not become monopolies but sure as hell had their entire chains held tight.

On the other side, Gallente Corporations were horizontally integrated (retail in all its forms and channels) and used other corporations to solve the other logistical or strategic issues.

Thats probably what started the whole issue, Gallente corps wanted to compete with some of the Caldari ones, but they didnt allow it and only handed contracts down their sub-corps or divisions, which would raise more than one eyebrow in the federation ultra-liberal market for "anti-competitive" behavior.

[Hamish Grayson]

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Horizons_%28Chronicle%29

Runia didn’t know much about the history of the Caldari; she knew that Caldari Prine - the old home of the Caldari - had several continents and that the different Caldari bloodlines came from different continents. Back in the days when the Caldari still occupied Caldari Prime the difference between the bloodlines was profound, not only in physical appearance, but also culturally. Runia suspected that the beliefs that the Caldari bloodlines were very different from each other stemmed from these facts. But when the Caldari had to leave their home planet and the long and arduous war with the Gallente Federation erupted the Caldari race as a whole was uprooted and thrown into a melting pot were fighting for their survival was all that mattered. The frantic decades that followed altered the Caldari psyche forever. Traits such as discipline and loyalty came to the forefront and shaped - and continue to shape - Caldari society into something completely new. The corporate state came into being, an all-engulfing machine that both nurtured and dominated its citizens. All the different bloodlines, Deteis and Civire the two largest, were affected by these deep-rooted changes and molded to the norm.

The effect was that the Caldari thought of them as Caldari first, their corporation came second, with the bloodline they belonged to a distant third. None of the mega-corporations were structured around the bloodlines and they intermingled freely on every social level. Although the bloodlines were proud of their heritage they didn’t feel it was an important aspect of their life. Inter-marriages are not common, but this has more to do with physical differences than anything else. 

So, yes - there were survivors from other bloodlines but so few of them that we don't see any in game.   I suspect it's because their descendants would be 9/10 (pulled out of my ass) Deties or Civre by this point.     If that's so, I would count not having enough pure members of a bloodline to continue it as being extinct.

[Mithfindel]

My initial analysis of the rank snippets is most certainly wrong.

Five months of debate after the secret colonies were found.
Once this was ruled in the favour of the Federation in the Senate, then secession.
After one week, Federal blockade.
After one and a half months of blockade, Nouvelle Rouvenor.
Bombardment starts after a few days, and continues for five weeks. (Three months after the secession.)
Three weeks into the bombardment, the hawk CEOs kill off the dove CEOs.
Two weeks after the Morning of Reasoning, the nascent Caldari Navy clears the orbit of Caldari Prime and ends the bombardment.
Two weeks after breaking the siege, Gallente are ready to counterattack. Tovil-Toba acts first, and plays cat-and-mouse with the Gallente for a week around Gallente Prime.
Three weeks after breaking the siege, the Caldari battlegroup near Gallente Prime is down to its flagship. Tovil-Toba guides the Kariola into atmosphere, allowing the Caldari high command one more week to finish the evacuation.
Four months after the secession, evacuation is completed.

[BloodBird]

If the information outlined by Mithfindel (nice job, btw) is correct, then I see little chance that the bombardment was an intentional U-Nat genocide on the Caldari, atl a 'kill everyone' kind. 5 weeks worth of 'systematic bombardment' of the planet - entierly unoposed until the blockade was stopped - and 'hundreds of thousands' were the number of fatalities? That's the only clear 'number' I've seen anywhere (in the second of the 3 crons regarding the war, IIRC) and the only way a 5-week sustained bombardment (with the intention of killing everyone) could kill that few would be gross incompetence on the part of the Federal fleet.

Several sources detail the damage done by, for instance, a single large railgun's impact. 1 kilometer in diameter worth of pure destructive power, per shot?  Dominixes have room for 6, with re-fire ability to send off dozens per minute, and the Federal fleet had plenty more than just one Dominix. And yet, 100k to 900k seems an absurdly low number if the idea was to kill everyone - just a day's worth of shooting any city should yeald a considerably higher tally, they had weeks. Hell, the Federation's non-Caldari civilian population suffered more losses than that, standing at over 2.5 million dead, arguably a greater 'attempt at genocide' than the bombing could hope to be.

Obviously we could claim that the cities emptied out in mere days or hours when the bombardment started, but the fatalities should be far, far higher regardless. I mean seriously, how hard could it be to shell the outlying areas as well? Take more careful aim and shoot the main lines of retreat out of the urban areas? Each shot obliterates a kilometer-wide area, after all - you don't need to aim that well.

On the other hand, claiming it was a campaign to dismantle the corporations and assimilate the Caldari culture and people into the Union by force, is another matter entierly, one that seems more likely in my eyes. Especially under the U-Nats - who likely viewed the Caldari as a direct danger, to themselves, their people, politics, economy or whatever - that had to be silenced by force. Even after the infamous carrier-drop that ended with forcing the U-Nats out, the new Federal government elected to continue the war, starting by returnig to Caldari Prime to continue where they left off. Ofc, the Caldari were gone by then, ensuring the planet fell to the Federal forces soon enough, and the war dragged on for another century or so. A war the vast majority of the Caldari people survived without any major problem, because as far as we know, (thanks to lacking PF on the subject) no other Caldari planet was shelled from orbit.

[Hamish Grayson]

What if the entire population of Caldari Prime was only a few million at the start?  The did start out from a handful of spread out bio-domes after all.  It would explain a lot, from the tech gap to how they managed to haul them all out in badger sized ships in a month to all sorts of other details.   

The Gallente Navy may not have had many battleships at all; even ten years ago IC battleships were capitals and they hadn't yet met a hostile force requiring them to have large standing Navy.     These events were several hundred years ago IC, and as far a I know only the Amarrians are currently still using hulls from that time period.  Plausible?

[Desiderya]

Two important snippets out of the The Science of Never again chronicle:

Gallente warships had pummeled Caldari Prime cities from orbit uncontested for far too long had planetary defense been in the forefront of the Caldari technological initiative at the time, things might have been different. [...] As evident by the fate of Trevor’s parents and hundreds of thousands like them, the Caldari paid a terrible price for their lack of foresight.

There's the part about hundreds of thousands and that the bombardment was indeed (likely among others) aimed at cities.
Then, to put it into perspective,

The truce that left Caldari Prime—once the home world for millions of Caldari—legally in the hands of the Gallente Federation was the breaking point.

Apparently Caldari Prime was indeed very thinly settled or the numbers are  a bit off, with planets being huge and so on. Even then it shows a relative trend, with even "just about 10% killed".
Last but not least, today genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the groups conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

[Mithfindel]

We do know that the Dominix design is from the days of the Caldari-Gallente war, but probably from the later part, close to the Battle of Iyen-Oursta when Gallente heavily invested into drones. (Initially, their drone technology wasn't more advanced than simple mines with limited mobility.(1)) Also, only certain parts of Caldari Prime would be bombarded, as the Gallente had sent troops in and, thus, there was a ground war going as well(2).

It is also quite possible that the Gallente did only "systematically bombard" the planet for a shorter duration to land troops safely. There's little information to confirm or deny this - though the chronicles tell about taking the planet (2), so it actually seems more likely that the Gallente are talking the planet the old fashioned way, at least until the Caldari gain aerospace superiority. The Breakout also specifically mentions Gallente troops "on and around" Caldari Prime. Of course, Duvalier's talk about silencing the Caldari permanently doesn't sound too friendly, and the boots on the ground can also inflict damage on the civilian population, even if the Prime Fiction parts focus on the orbital bombardment.

(1) The War Drones On http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug04
(2) The Breakout http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug01

[Myyona]

Comparing weapon technology of "today" with how the performed "back then" is a highly speculative matter. War has the habit of starting an arms race and rarely do people kill each other with the same stuff by the start and end of the war. Especially with the time span of this one and all the years that have passed since then.

Further, this planetary attack was hardly a surprise and the Caldari had probably taken all possible precautions shelter wise to protect themselves against the attack.