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[Z.Sinraali]

One would not expect a coalition between the IRA and Microsoft unless both were activated by a deeper sentiment, a greater goal.

Fund it!

[Casiella]

I don't think Seri's point is actually to say "State Bad, Fed Good!" but to point out that saying "Fed Bad, State Good" is to miss other side of the discussion.

[Bastian Valoron]

It might be good to pause here and remember that we are discussing about fiction, out of character. An indisputable truth about who is right and who is wrong would be boring and kill the role-playing. It's hard to believe that the backstory of the Gallente-Caldari conflict would have been written to have no ambiguity in it. In my understanding, Seri is trying to sketch the Federal point of view here. The Caldari side of the argument is already quite well-known.

[Vikarion]

It might be good to pause here and remember that we are discussing about fiction, out of character. An indisputable truth about who is right and who is wrong would be boring and kill the role-playing. It's hard to believe that the backstory of the Gallente-Caldari conflict would have been written to have no ambiguity in it. In my understanding, Seri is trying to sketch the Federal point of view here. The Caldari side of the argument is already quite well-known.

I don't think anyone is getting heated or anything. But I do believe that you are wrong on Seri's presentation. He proposed a viewpoint based upon the status of a neutral observer with a background in International Relations. Now, that's fine, a forum is for discussion of such views. But I don't think that his view conforms to PF, rather, I think you have to twist the PF into spaghetti in order to come up with his view. And as for the fictional viewpoint, I'll note that this is the OOC side of the discussion, and he didn't preface anything with "this is what my character thinks". Unless people indicate otherwise, I support literal and practical interpretations of their words.

And Seri admits that he may have confirmation bias. I think that he does. It seems to me, that in his analysis, the whole affair is a matter of one side being completely irrational, greedy, and evil, and the other side, at worst, slightly indecisive. This is not, I would again submit, an interpretation that can be justified without a complete rewriting of the primary PF involved and a complete disregard for other PF that is available.

Now, people rewrite and reinterpret all the time, to suit their own purposes and views. This doesn't make someone evil, it makes them human. Naturally we want the side we pick to be the good guys, and the other side the evil stinkers. I could be wrong, but this is what appears to be happening here, cloaked in the sense and atmosphere of an IR analysis. But, trust me, you can make such efforts support any side - with a little work, I could absolutely reverse Seri's entire theme.

So let's not go into a game of guessing character interpretation, or Seri's motives personally, or any of those things, because they are both not useful and I prefer to avoid personal attacks on the motives of another. I will note, again, that some RPers, and I am not referring necessarily to anyone in particular, will not admit even OOC that their faction has any major faults.

My concern is, does the interpretation conform to PF? Is it reasonably compatible with the fiction presented by CCP? No, it is not.

This doesn't mean that I'm calling Seri a bad RPer, or that he can't RP this way. But I can - and will, thank you - argue that his arguments are flawed, and not supported by the evidence. That, after all, is one of the primary purposes of a forum.

[Vikarion]

I don't think Seri's point is actually to say "State Bad, Fed Good!" but to point out that saying "Fed Bad, State Good" is to miss other side of the discussion.

Cas, this might be a reasonable idea, except that this is not provided as a Gallente viewpoint, but as a "better perspective" on the PF. I don't think a radical reinterpretation of the PF, for all players, can be called simply a "different side of the discussion". It's an attempt to reshape the perspective of the RP community to seeing the Caldari rebellion as a fraudulent action instigated by selfish individuals who manipulated the masses, against an innocent and entirely acceptable Gallente regime whose worst crime was military action to protect themselves.

This is not supported by the PF, in my view. I think that, to espouse the above, you have to treat the relevant fiction in-game like silly putty, interpreting it according to your own arguments and views. I prefer a more inductive method, where we read the fiction and model the fictional past according to what we are told. There's a big difference in both philosophy and practice there.

[Valdezi]

The Caldari side of the argument is already quite well-known.

Vik,

Your second and third posts are very reasonable, but your first one did come across quite heatedly to me, so I imagine that's why Bastian was making that point.

I often try to sympathise with Caldari RPers even though I'm not really one myself and consider what difficulties they've had to face having their RP entirely destroyed by TonyG/CCP/Heth and the difficulties surrounding that. I think that must be difficult.

On the other hand I feel that the dominant perspective 'out there' on the Caldari-Gallente conflict is the Caldari perspective. Even though I'm not really a Gallente RPer either, in my brief flirtation with Federalism, the amount of RPers of all colours (even what seemed to be the majority of Minmatar RPers) hating on the Fed seemed incongruous with  PF and can make a Federal RPer frustrated. I can understand Seri wanted to redress this perceived imbalance.

I also admit to possible bias colouring the way I see things, as should we all.

[Casiella]

I'll give a run-down of how the war started, with my own personal perspectives from both sides. I may very well be biased towards the Gallente side, but hey, the RP community hardly paints the Caldari in a negative light with this area of history anyway.

This is what I keyed on, at any rate. And for what it's worth, I think that a Gallente history would take a view very much like modern Western viewpoints.

[Ulphus]

Even though I'm not really a Gallente RPer either, in my brief flirtation with Federalism, the amount of RPers of all colours (even what seemed to be the majority of Minmatar RPers) hating on the Fed seemed incongruous with  PF and can make a Federal RPer frustrated.

I'm not entirely sure why. My character is quite strongly pro-federation because when the Minmatar were rebelling and needed the help, the Gallente were there.

Sure, they're sometimes casually ignorant of Matari customs, and occasionally obnoxious in the way they're surprised that the Minmatar don't want to be a copy of the Fed, but if they hadn't provided support when they did, the republic probably wouldn't exist.

There is also the issue that a third of all Matari live in the Federation. I could see some people being grumpy that the Fed has more opportunity for a lot of Matari than the Republic does, but really, it's because there is a lot more opportunity for them than at home.

I note that there isn't much information about Matari immigrating to Caldari space...

(I hesitate to use the behaviour of the FW as evidence for anything, but when the Caldari are bored, they can sometimes be seen aiding the Amarr in Minmatar space.)

[Hamish Grayson]

Cas,

Seri isn't known for trying to making posts about how things would look from the prospective of a Gallente character.   Seri is known for his endless crusade to convince the flesh and blood players of the RP community that the Caldari are Eve's bad guys and the Gallente it's good guys.   Not characters. Players.   He's not spinning IC propaganda, he's spinning OOC propaganda and he's been at it for a very long time.   

[BloodBird]

I don't think that I can state with suitable propriety the vehemence...

But you did. In short, your telling Seriphyn, and the rest of us, that he's doing it wrong.

In my opinion HIS opinion is slightly to far on the 'side' of the Fed, a bit to favorable to them. But his is an informed claim based on the limited PF available to us - you on the other hand, simply state that he's wrong based on your own opinion that you mostly pass off as in-disputable evidence that everything he's argued in the OP is entierly wrong. Your claiming that he's white-washing the Fed of any In-universe blame or guilt while at the same time painting it black again, re-inforcing the more popular Caldari-based side of the arguments with your opinion and discrediting anything that's not in-line with it.

I've spent some time looking over the logs of my own posts to try and find the one where I posted my own 'resume' of the Gallente-Caldari war, specifically the events around Caldari Prime. I did not find it, but did not look to hard, either. (I'm tired, and will be in bed soon.)

In short, the resume pointed out why there are no clear answers and at least two different scenario's are possible regarding Caldari Prime and the events around it - there is no solid evidence to back either and both could be the actual answer. We will never know unless CCP hands us a clear answer to the question.

TL:DR; You are arguing your opinion as fact and pushing Seri's opinion aside without even underlying your opinions with any solid arguments, contrary to Seri who pointed our the source of his beliefs regarding the events and how he theory-crafted that they might make sense. I don't agree with his assesment entierly but at least he made an effort to clarify how he came to those conclusions. You should too, instead of attacking his ideas out-of-hand.

Perhaps I'll be around to partake in this tread tomorrow. Heading off o/

[Altarr Orkot]

Cas, this might be a reasonable idea, except that this is not provided as a Gallente viewpoint, but as a "better perspective" on the PF. I don't think a radical reinterpretation of the PF, for all players, can be called simply a "different side of the discussion". It's an attempt to reshape the perspective of the RP community to seeing the Caldari rebellion as a fraudulent action instigated by selfish individuals who manipulated the masses, against an innocent and entirely acceptable Gallente regime whose worst crime was military action to protect themselves.

This is not supported by the PF, in my view. I think that, to espouse the above, you have to treat the relevant fiction in-game like silly putty, interpreting it according to your own arguments and views. I prefer a more inductive method, where we read the fiction and model the fictional past according to what we are told. There's a big difference in both philosophy and practice there.

Which part of the PF does support the notion that the Federal Government was being at all malicious in it's actions?.  The timeline says the Caldari (I wish CCP had made the distinction between the governments and the races more clear ) were forced to join the Federation by circumstance, not by coercion.  If 'Caldari' means all Caldari, then IMO the specifics become quite muddy, why would all 'Caldari' agree to join on circumstance?  The proto-Fed would sway to the masses as much as it does today.  But if 'Caldari' means the ruling corps (as I think) then it makes sense they felt forced to join either by their affiliations with other corporations and governments or because the broader populace was okay with the Federation.  Either way the corps did join the Federation, so why would the Federal Government think all Caldari felt unhappy or disaffected by the decision, if the average Joe even did feel unhappy at the time.

The chrons state that once the Federation stumbled upon a secret colony, (noting that reach of the Federation wasn't even enough to find out about millions of people and a secret military), they did what I imagine any government would do, and asked for the colonies to be put under their control.  The next line of the chron is: "This was too much for the Caldari Corporations, which were already grumbling over increasing Federation interference into their affairs." (Emphasis Mine) I don't think it is at all unreasonable to say that the corporate leadership led the succession not because of any bold Braveheart-esque notions about freedom from tyranny, but simply because their bottom line and ability to operate freely was being hurt by Federal taxes and regulations.

As far as genocide goes, burning cities don't prove anything, this is Baghdad in 2003: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0kcaziP-0o and lot of Iraqis probably won't like the coalition for a while, but doesn't mean any genocide was attempted during the Iraqi war.  Secondly given that there was a large Gallente population on Caldari Prime (supported by the chrons) indiscriminate bombing would be killing a lot of them too.  Thirdly an entire population of I'm guessing hundreds of millions (I'm not sure on the numbers) into the wilderness?  I know the chron says it but it strikes me as completely implausible if they were fleeing orbital genocide.  In order to support that many people we know from modern experiences they'd likely end up in large refugee camps, which would be perfect targets for orbital strikes.  And if they didn't, how exactly would all these city dwellers survive in small groups without survival gear and supplies?  I think it's more likely that some of the population fled because of the bombing and invasion, but not all of it.  Finally if the Federation really wanted to commit genocide, why bother invading?  Just evacuate as many of the loyal citizens as you can then drop NBC weapons onto the population centers.  Remember the Federal government at the time was massively pro-war and anti-Caldari, with the doveish elements terrified of being 'traitors'.  And the Navy officers were newly appointed cronies, I'm sure they would have been willing to kill Federal citizens as collateral damage ("They will sing songs of your sacrifice" or "They lived on the same world as the Caldari! They were bad!").

[Vikarion]

But you did. In short, your telling Seriphyn, and the rest of us, that he's doing it wrong.

I think I have been clear about this: Seri may RP how he desires, and I am not saying that he cannot appropriate to himself or to his character any view he desires. But to say that I cannot state my disagreement with another view (which certainly implies that the other view, in my opinion, is wrong), doesn't really amount to much more than a "shut up". I don't think that's what you mean to say.

So let me put it this way: if I do disagree with Seri's view, and I do, and forums involve discussions of differing views, which they do, how would you suggest I exhibit my disagreement without, ah, expressing my disagreement? I'm sure you see the problem for me here. 

I don't think that my arguments can be said to be vehement, unfair, or insulting. I took various points I disagree with, and stated my responses. In no way does doing so reflect personally on myself or Seriphyn - or you, either. Nor did I - intentionally, at least - insult him or suggest that he, personally was arguing in bad faith. I do think that the attempt to argue your faction into sainthood, so to speak, is a bad idea, but Seri may indeed see his faction in that light. I see none of them in that light, incidentally.

In my opinion HIS opinion is slightly to far on the 'side' of the Fed, a bit to favorable to them. But his is an informed claim based on the limited PF available to us - you on the other hand, simply state that he's wrong based on your own opinion that you mostly pass off as in-disputable evidence that everything he's argued in the OP is entierly wrong.

My apologies. I thought - in retrospect, rather foolishly - that everyone had as much interest in the Caldari backstory as I do, which is my failure. I've amended my post with some links and quotes, although I will note that I did indeed reference a few Chronicles, so I don't think that your statement of my argument is entirely fair.

Your claiming that he's white-washing the Fed of any In-universe blame or guilt while at the same time painting it black again, re-inforcing the more popular Caldari-based side of the arguments with your opinion and discrediting anything that's not in-line with it.

I have to express my belief that you are engaging in a fallacy here. Specifically, just because a country commits an atrocity does not necessarily make that country "evil", or, at least, evil for all time. To illustrate, consider Germany and the Holocaust: Germany today is not the same country it was in 1944, nor were all of its citizens evil or willing collaborators in the Holocaust.

Now, what can we say about the Gallente and Caldari, even if I'm right? Well, the Caldari committed an illegal action, as opposed to a more legal means of secession, and engaged in terrorist atrocities. The Gallente decided to essentially reply with incredibly disproportionate retribution against Caldari civilians. Is this a plausible interpretation? Yes. Has such a thing happened in real history? Yes. Does it mean that the Caldari are now clean as a whistle? No. I therefore do not consider my view to be the "Caldari viewpoint", but rather the balanced view, which sees both sides as having committed atrocities, but in this case, the Gallente doing more damage by a good bit.

Consider how you would approach someone who claimed that Tibus Heth's expulsion of Gallente expatriates from the State as justified, since they were enemy agents. Suppose that this person invented scenarios of fifth columns and spies, which required this expulsion. He might make a good argument, but it would have the fatal flaw of being contradicted and not supported by the PF. This, I submit, would be an analogous case to what Seri is doing. Now, no one is saying that Seri can't hold that view, or that doing so is "RP'ing wrong". But one can certainly hold a view that says his theories don't conform to a reasonable reading of the PF.

In short, the resume pointed out why there are no clear answers and at least two different scenario's are possible regarding Caldari Prime and the events around it - there is no solid evidence to back either and both could be the actual answer. We will never know unless CCP hands us a clear answer to the question.

Again, to say that there is no solid evidence to back either scenario is, in my opinion, incorrect. Seri has to dismiss some evidence as "rhetoric" or biased statements, while extrapolating other evidence beyond reason (again, in my opinion), and inventing other assumptions out of those extrapolations. I don't think that that's the best way to "decide what happened".

The current view is not "Caldari-centric". Caldari RPers have never been a huge force in the community, certainly not enough of one to set the tone of the discussion. The current view is the idea most people have entertained off of a reading of the PF. I have argued Caldari-centric views with my character, so I can assert with great confidence that the standard scenario is one that can use a bit of spinning from the Caldari point of view as well. I just don't try to assert it as OOC fact as well.

[Vikarion]

Which part of the PF does support the notion that the Federal Government was being at all malicious in it's actions?.  The timeline says the Caldari (I wish CCP had made the distinction between the governments and the races more clear ) were forced to join the Federation by circumstance, not by coercion.

Circumstance implies coercion or threatened coercion. Precisely how else would the Caldari be "forced" to join? It's made fairly clear by the timeline that the Gallente were rapidly expanding, assimilating all nearby planets and populations. Therefore, since they lacked the technology to resist, the Caldari had no choice but to join, either peaceably, or, eventually, by military subjugation. This is not unreasonable: consider the fate of colonies and tribes that stood in the way of the Westward Expansion of the United States.

If 'Caldari' means all Caldari, then IMO the specifics become quite muddy, why would all 'Caldari' agree to join on circumstance?  The proto-Fed would sway to the masses as much as it does today.  But if 'Caldari' means the ruling corps (as I think) then it makes sense they felt forced to join either by their affiliations with other corporations and governments or because the broader populace was okay with the Federation.  Either way the corps did join the Federation, so why would the Federal Government think all Caldari felt unhappy or disaffected by the decision, if the average Joe even did feel unhappy at the time.

It's noted in the Corporation descriptions and the Chronicles dealing with them that the Megacorps essentially were Caldari society and government well before the secession. But to assume that the Megacorps had such a role at the time of the Federation's founding is an entirely different matter, and, moreover, the beginning of the "The Early Days" Chronicle states that the corporations were not as powerful as they are now. Nonetheless, this point has little relevance to the discussion, I think.

The chrons state that once the Federation stumbled upon a secret colony, (noting that reach of the Federation wasn't even enough to find out about millions of people and a secret military), they did what I imagine any government would do, and asked for the colonies to be put under their control.  The next line of the chron is: "This was too much for the Caldari Corporations, which were already grumbling over increasing Federation interference into their affairs." (Emphasis Mine) I don't think it is at all unreasonable to say that the corporate leadership led the succession not because of any bold Braveheart-esque notions about freedom from tyranny, but simply because their bottom line and ability to operate freely was being hurt by Federal taxes and regulations.

Your assertion that the rebellion was not popular in nature is contradicted by numerous sources of PF (again, by my reading):

"Slowly but surely we are betraying the legacy left to us, the children of the Raata. The light of the Caldari spirit grows ever darker under the encroaching shadow of our would-be masters. Our very identity as a people is being subsumed by the Federation and we must act to preserve it."

- Excerpt from a National Address, delivered by Kalaakiota CEO Matias Sobaseki. CE 23154.6.26

"It is rather strange that the good of the many seems to constantly coincide with whatever policies weaken the Caldari, the Intaki, and the Mannar and keep them under the heel of the Gallente."

- Caldari Senator Kiriusu Otenga, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21

"We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari, and so you leave us with no choice"

- Excerpt from the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22

The Caldari never wholly clicked with Gallente government. Even when they were co-founding the Federation alongside the Gallente, Intaki and Mannar, the Caldari megacorps were also establishing secret colonies and deep-space resources outside of Federation borders that weren't subject to Gallente trade regulations. The Caldari viewed this as part of the process of retaining their cultural identity and autonomy.

So, we have a quote from a Caldari CEO, a Caldari Senator, and, presumably, one from whatever Caldari government existed at the time. In addition, from "The Early Days" we have Caldari guerrillas and partisans, in addition to the terrorist dragonaurs. We should also keep in mind that executing a war is the worst thing a corporation can do to its bottom line, since military forces are an investment with no material return (narrowly speaking). As well, there were corporations that did not want to secede, lending further credence to the point that the conflict was not economically motivated. A broad-based, economically disastrous war for independence has, in history, usually been the result of popular feeling and mistreatment of the rebelling population.

As far as genocide goes, burning cities don't prove anything, this is Baghdad in 2003: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0kcaziP-0o and lot of Iraqis probably won't like the coalition for a while, but doesn't mean any genocide was attempted during the Iraqi war.

Fortunately for Baghdad, we weren't bombing it from orbit, or the results would have been, ah, different. Consider the other sources regarding orbital bombardment that we have in Eve, if you will. First, the Starkmanir tribe was nearly destroyed by an orbital bombardment (Chronicle: Khumaak). The Sansha were nearly annihilated by similar means. The Chronicle Xenocracy has a capsuleer threatening the destruction of a city by means of railguns. The specifications are exact: each shell will destroy everything within half a kilometer. The only orbital bombardment in Eve history that is not totally catastrophic is the Caldari bombardment of Caldari Prime in the invasion, and those bombardments are said to have been directed as pinpoint strikes against purely military targets, and they still lead to massive loss of life.

Genocide isn't necessarily wiping out every member of a race or people. It's the destruction of massive numbers of them, usually only for the crime of being in that group.

Secondly given that there was a large Gallente population on Caldari Prime (supported by the chrons) indiscriminate bombing would be killing a lot of them too.

 

Well, we may presume that it did, although, since the Gallente apparently preferred underwater cities, perhaps not.

Thirdly an entire population of I'm guessing hundreds of millions (I'm not sure on the numbers) into the wilderness?  I know the chron says it but it strikes me as completely implausible if they were fleeing orbital genocide.  In order to support that many people we know from modern experiences they'd likely end up in large refugee camps, which would be perfect targets for orbital strikes.  And if they didn't, how exactly would all these city dwellers survive in small groups without survival gear and supplies?  I think it's more likely that some of the population fled because of the bombing and invasion, but not all of it.  Finally if the Federation really wanted to commit genocide, why bother invading?  Just evacuate as many of the loyal citizens as you can then drop NBC weapons onto the population centers.  Remember the Federal government at the time was massively pro-war and anti-Caldari, with the doveish elements terrified of being 'traitors'.  And the Navy officers were newly appointed cronies, I'm sure they would have been willing to kill Federal citizens as collateral damage ("They will sing songs of your sacrifice" or "They lived on the same world as the Caldari! They were bad!").

Again, you are contradicted (in my opinion, based on my reading) by both real world history, and by PF.

First, consider Germany's approach to genocide in World War 2. Why, if they wanted the Jews and the Russians dead, would they bother invading? Well, partially because they wanted the land (and similarly, apparently many Gallente preferred to live on Caldari Prime) and because genocide is difficult to accomplish from the air alone. Very difficult, in fact. As well, the germans desired to use the russians as slave labor and serfs. That the Gallente would plan to eventually put boots on the ground to assure their victory isn't unreasonable - it's actually necessary for the aim.

Second, from the "The Early Days" Chronicle:

...the Federation retaliated at once by sending an invasion force down to Caldari Prime and began a systematic orbital bombardment of the planet. Soon, the Caldari population had been driven to the mountains and the forests; their resistance getting weaker by the day.

Now, systematic doesn't mean "targeted at military installations". It means "thorough", "complete", and "methodical", to take a few from a thesaurus. And the Chronicle states that the remaining Caldari population were driven to the mountains and forests. Not the military (which was apparently only in the colonies anyway), but the civilian population. If we examine under what circumstances this occurs in a war, we see (consider Japan and Germany in World War 2) that it happens when cities are completely destroyed (as in the firebombings). If civilians are able to remain, they typically do (as in the Blitz).

In addition, if the Caldari civilian population was in no danger, than the decision to evacuate them was insane. Left on the planet, they'd cause far more trouble for the Federation than they would cause the military of the nascent State. Evacuating them nearly cost the Caldari the war - why the need for so hasty, dangerous, and foolhardy an operation? The only explanation to hand is that the Caldari population faced an existential threat.

To end, the following quote puts the capstone on my argument for the bombardment being targeted at the civilian population:

"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
—CEP response to Federation demands for unconditional surrender after initial bombardment of Caldari Prime. CE 23155.1.18

[Altarr Orkot]

EDIT: On further thought, whatever. Caldari Victor.  Apparently we can't delete posts though .

[Jev North]