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Author Topic: Faction War 2.0  (Read 5909 times)

Silas Vitalia

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Faction War 2.0
« on: 09 May 2012, 15:33 »

Les Dev Blog:

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659

Some positive steps. However I don't see the cyno-jamming?




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Lyn Farel

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #1 on: 09 May 2012, 15:44 »

I am not sure where I could give my feedback to CCP. I like all these changes (mostly...) but I fear that some crucial things are lacking not to end up in a disaster. Or well, I feel it that way.
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Creep

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #2 on: 09 May 2012, 16:04 »

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Alain Kinsella

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #3 on: 09 May 2012, 16:47 »

I believe they removed the cyno-jam for now due to 'feedback' at fanfest.

The med-clone savings (for anyone in system) seems to be an interesting twist.  They're touting that as a carrot for luring industrialists; I just don't see that happening much (other than PI perhaps, but for someone like my specialized character that's not a big saving).

They will also be awarding LP to allied faction players on a kill.  I'm guessing CCP thinks that if one faction is losing too much, their ally can assist in taking back systems to maintain balance, or at least stall total takeover.

I cannot comment on datacores, I've never worked with that.  But I can see invention going crazy for awhile.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #4 on: 09 May 2012, 18:02 »

As I've said to a few people already, I like the changes they've already got listed, and think they're a great start, however I believe there are a few very important things missing from the list that without which I would consider this not in the slightest ready for release.

Things that help balance the playing field regardless of numbers on either side, like:
- I-Hubs requiring constant upkeep. Even if nobody's offensively plexing in your system, LP should still need to be funneled into the I-Hub to keep it upgraded. Constantly. This would mean that if you don't feed an I-Hub, you can lose all of the upgrades and possibly the system; it would also force people to prioritize feeding the I-Hubs of strategic systems over others. Force players to play triage with their systems - pool your LP into these two particularly important systems in exchange for barely upgrading (or even losing) these five systems over here that are of little use to either side.
- Make rewards for various accomplishments scale inversely to the amount of space your militia holds. This means diminishing returns for LP rewards based on the amount of space held by your militia, and conversely, increased returns for the side with less space. The more of the opposing faction's space your militia has claimed, the less LP you receive for various tasks. The less space your militia holds, the higher the LP rewards, and the easier it is to flip systems. Coupled with the previous, the more space you hold, the smaller the amount of LP there is to spare for fueling your I-Hubs, and the harder it is to keep control over more space than less space; likewise, it makes it easier to make a comeback after you've been pushed into a corner.

These two changes alone would make me consider that maybe things were ready to be rolled out. It obviously needs more, but without these two? No. No way in hell is it ready for release.

(Disclaimer: I don't fly in FW, and never will. But the FW changes are going to start affecting more than just the wannabe pirates brave souls fighting for ZombieQueen Empress and Empire, etc., and I'm also getting a little tired of people complaining about how imbalanced it is whenever the pendulum swings the other way.)
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Lagging Behind

Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Valdezi

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #5 on: 09 May 2012, 18:05 »

At least this means that Damar can't sit in Intaki any more and be a pain. That makes me happy.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #6 on: 09 May 2012, 18:07 »

Oh Morwen I love your idea on proportionnal rewards (your 2nd point). It goes quite well with mine on plexes harder and harder when you win (and easier and easier when you lose) : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1274730#post1274730
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #7 on: 09 May 2012, 18:39 »

I stole that from Esna. He's just a lazy bastard and hasn't posted yet, afaik. :P
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Lagging Behind

Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #8 on: 09 May 2012, 18:52 »

Lack of cyno jamming due to super pilots whining is so much fail.  This just scrapped a lot of plans i was making (boo!)

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Kyoko Sakoda

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #9 on: 09 May 2012, 19:01 »

Cynojamming was more likely scrapped for two other reasons.

1) It's not the focus of the current high-level changes to artificially restrict ship types.
2) Jump spoolers are still being considered.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #10 on: 09 May 2012, 19:48 »

Cynojamming was more likely scrapped for two other reasons.

1) It's not the focus of the current high-level changes to artificially restrict ship types.
2) Jump spoolers are still being considered.

Faction warfare already artificially restricts ship types in nearly every system? Ships and modules are already restricted across the entire map? No warp fields in highsec, no bubbles in high and low sec? No bombs in low?  This is just another restriction to add. Facwar is  supposed to be the shallow end for PVP, as is their argument for the existing ship restrictions.  Getting rid of cynos / capitals, which are extremely broken ships as it is, can only help things.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #11 on: 09 May 2012, 20:06 »

Morwen did steal that, yes, but I don't mind.


In the end, I feel like a lot of these ideas seem to hinge on the idea of there being enough people interested in a "good fight" to counteract those interested in total dominance, or that the market will cause more people to join the loosing side take advantage of increased prices.

My experience, however, tells me that this is the exclusion rather than the norm; moreover, even if there are a significant number of people on both sides interested in "goodfights", the existing numerical imbalances between militias will cause the smaller side to run out of available combat ships (assuming a relatively similar win/loss ratio for all parties) far sooner than the larger side. This will then only be aggravated by the smaller side's inability to make money by grinding their own missions, because they won't be able to dock in their own stations.


Overall, however... here's my thesis on the topic of FW and consequences:

- I am not averse to war being unfair or having - indeed, it is these factors that makes EVE's 0.0 sovereignty wars unique compared to most other "territory holding" online games.

- One of the reasons the above can be true is that neither victory nor loss are permanent; while the steps after victory are obvious, the steps after defeat are critical as well: Either find somewhere to fall back to, or dissolve your alliance. Should you take the former option, finding new manpower and resources for your force is critical; typically that either means joining a new bloc or going to boot out someone weaker than yourself. If you take the latter options, your members have the ability to join someone else doing what you couldn't.

- In FW, the above options are not available. Once you are out, you are out; there are no allied forces to request to your aid nor any alternate theaters to go fight in. The availability of titans and the geographical relatively short distance between theaters means that any force that comes to dominate one theater will be easily able to influence the other, and vice versa. This is drawn from my direct experience with FW, and talks I've head with people on the other side.

- Finally, it was suggested during a discussion in OOC earlier today that the numerically smaller side adopt a tactic of waiting for the frontlines to pass, then rising up again to strike at the support units. I personally don't believe this is a viable tactic either; most militia hauling these days is done by covops transport, jump-capable ship, or freighter with escorts including webs (again, drawing from personal experience and talks with the other side); none of these present targets that can be intercepted without careful planning. Supply lines from market hub to warzone are incredibly short, however, limiting the distance (and time) a raider has to organize an interdiction. Neither is "laying in wait" a possibility either; with a unified militia channel and no place for raiders to dock up to make their presence in local constant, even the most rookie players will have early warning of a raider fleet.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Gottii

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #12 on: 09 May 2012, 20:42 »


- Finally, it was suggested during a discussion in OOC earlier today that the numerically smaller side adopt a tactic of waiting for the frontlines to pass, then rising up again to strike at the support units. I personally don't believe this is a viable tactic either; most militia hauling these days is done by covops transport, jump-capable ship, or freighter with escorts including webs (again, drawing from personal experience and talks with the other side); none of these present targets that can be intercepted without careful planning. Supply lines from market hub to warzone are incredibly short, however, limiting the distance (and time) a raider has to organize an interdiction. Neither is "laying in wait" a possibility either; with a unified militia channel and no place for raiders to dock up to make their presence in local constant, even the most rookie players will have early warning of a raider fleet.

The fact that EVE's logistics are hard to stop is a failing of this game.  It makes combat less exciting, not more so.  But a lot of people dont get that.
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"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #13 on: 09 May 2012, 21:06 »

The fact that EVE's logistics are hard to stop is a failing of this game.  It makes combat less exciting, not more so.  But a lot of people dont get that.

Certainly. In 0.0, however, the length of any given supply line, especially those that stretch farther into 0.0 than just a single Empire->0.0 jump, are at least somewhat interdictable.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Bacchanalian

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Re: Faction War 2.0
« Reply #14 on: 09 May 2012, 23:04 »

The fact that EVE's logistics are hard to stop is a failing of this game.  It makes combat less exciting, not more so.  But a lot of people dont get that.

Certainly. In 0.0, however, the length of any given supply line, especially those that stretch farther into 0.0 than just a single Empire->0.0 jump, are at least somewhat interdictable.

They certainly were before jump bridges in every system.  Since then, not so much.
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