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[Silas Vitalia]

Great ideas. I think the point to support here is that the term can be applied 'generally' to a whole class of soldiers following many different houses and traditions. 

Much like Eve's breadth of genres I feel just as likely to find a small team of cyberknights hunting down whatever Kingdom equivalent of the Yakuza are in Vezila, as we are to find House so-and-so's elite vanguard air-dropped into the center of a rival's HQ to level the place and send a message in the correct regal style

 

[Valdezi]

"This ship is my sword.  My faith is my armor.  Like my brothers and sisters before me, I go into battle in an exoskeleton of steel for which I have been adapted.  Space is my battleground.  My life is not my own, my service belongs to Holder and God.  Let my enemies know fear for I am implacable.  Khanid Victor!"

This makes me happy.

[Mathra Hiede]

I want to just add a quote to this 'thread of win'™

I was playing Space Marine yesterday (Okay okay, bear with me here)
In the mission where Titus distracts fire from the Inquisitor so they can reach the troopers HQ he rescues a bunch of soliders and the convo goes alot like this.

"My lord, we have you to thank for our lives!"
"I need no thanks trooper, I am an instrument of the Emperor's will now point me to the nearest concentration of orks"
 etc etc.

Now, this wrang a bell with me for Cyberknights as it seems to be that we agree that they are basically nobility.
Thus, this idea of nobility + extremely dangerous combat (melee or not) makes me believe they would be used similar to Space Marines and command respect even of Generals and such due to their position in the Kingdom.

In regards to 'swords' Large Melee weapons in general, be they swords, axes or whatever I think make sense as a "ohshit its a cyberknight" thing and very rarely used in actual combat - due to the issues everyone has stated, it makes sense for them to be supreme marksmen and great force multipliers.

Just an idea I had now, what if a certain sect of them specialised in ground based e-war with say heavy pistols and a melee  weapon. So use portable ecm-burst to scramble huds of troopers and close with pistol covering fire to nice and handy melee range but while maintaining the ability to put down solid ranged fire.
Cons of this is of course they get pinned down by ranged fire easily, so its not an i-win button and plays off the Kingdoms connection with the Caldari who favour force multipier tech, like ECM.

[Desiderya]

Guns need ammunition, and ammunition is scarce on the battlefield. Much more important is the reloading/recharging bit. That, and combat in confined quarters might lead to situations where a longarm isn't ready or not of much use. Sidearms usually offer rather limited offensive capability, especially when facing body armor.
Melee weapons have distinct advantages in very limited scenarios. The effectiveness relies mainly on the setting. Medieval knights were so valuable because they could afford their costly suit of armors, which stopped most weapons. The arms race invented many devious and less devious weapons that were a threat to heavily armored combatants.
In the context of EVE's setting it's difficult to judge whether it's possible to produce and wear practical body armor that can reliably stop most SOTA projectiles (broadly speaking) or not. The Dust equipment seems to indicate that to some extent.

While Dust mercenaries can instantly clone and rejoin a battle, cyberknights might rely on heavy ( and expensive ) body augmentations that, for example, allows wearing much thicker and heavier body armor. There's bound to be a point where it's more economical to reclone and refit a DUSTer than to invest into maximum protection. After all the soldier doesn't care about dying, as long as he's equipped good enough to fulfill his objectives.

I'd view it more as a cross between Shadowrun and W40k, the whole cyberknighting business. The really important bit is, imho, how to play or use it in RP. If you're invincible, or almost invincible, you're doing it wrong.

[Mathra Hiede]

I'd view it more as a cross between Shadowrun and W40k, the whole cyberknighting business. The really important bit is, imho, how to play or use it in RP. If you're invincible, or almost invincible, you're doing it wrong.

Definitely, hence my little scenario showing that while hugely powerful given the right situation they have a big Achilles heel which can be exploited and countered.

And especially with a Capsuleer, like us, being we are creatures of Space I would likely see that if trained as a Cyberknight that while these lend extra abilities on the ground most of them would be for show and as a back-up while out of the Capsule and not a primary thing.

[Lucius Vindictus]

I can see many ways a cyberknight would make an extremely deadly opponent. Fighting as frontline melee troopers isn't one of those.

On the other hand I find it completely reasonable to assume that cyberknights train with swords and fight duels/tournaments against their peers.

[Aria Jenneth]

Guns need ammunition, and ammunition is scarce on the battlefield. Much more important is the reloading/recharging bit. That, and combat in confined quarters might lead to situations where a longarm isn't ready or not of much use. Sidearms usually offer rather limited offensive capability, especially when facing body armor.

The U.S. military isn't huge on bayonets these days, despite the limits on how much ammo a given soldier can carry-- possibly in part because a given soldier can carry a fair bit. And that's with modern weapons. As for close quarters, a semi-automatic shotgun tends to beat a sword, and can be loaded with all manner of entertaining things. And then you've got the SMG.

Flashbangs for eyes and ears, frag grenades for when everybody must die, door charges for flattening the armored dude in the hall AS you make your big entrance....

A piercing thrust has no advantage you don't get from a gun, only with a shorter reach. A slash bites in confined spaces unless you can ignore things like walls-- and if you can ignore things like walls, the walls can't ignore you and you're apt to end up with a building on your fool cranium.

Ah-- and a sword's wall punch capability is limited by the length of your arm. Not so an LMG or similar toy.

Nope. Not buying it.

The effectiveness relies mainly on the setting.

Now you're talking sense.

Medieval knights were so valuable because they could afford their costly suit of armors, which stopped most weapons. The arms race invented many devious and less devious weapons that were a threat to heavily armored combatants.

None of which were fully automatic.

Or semi, even.

In the context of EVE's setting it's difficult to judge whether it's possible to produce and wear practical body armor that can reliably stop most SOTA projectiles (broadly speaking) or not. The Dust equipment seems to indicate that to some extent.

In which respect, it indicates that armor is distinctly permeable.

While Dust mercenaries can instantly clone and rejoin a battle, cyberknights might rely on heavy ( and expensive ) body augmentations that, for example, allows wearing much thicker and heavier body armor.

Beg to differ. DUST soldiers wear powered exoskeletons, according to the dev blogs on weapons.

There's bound to be a point where it's more economical to reclone and refit a DUSTer than to invest into maximum protection. After all the soldier doesn't care about dying, as long as he's equipped good enough to fulfill his objectives.

... which he is much less likely to do if he keeps dying.

I'd view it more as a cross between Shadowrun and W40k, the whole cyberknighting business.

I might consider the Shadowrun aspect (it's where I got the Dikote, TM, reference) but not at the expense of guns. Bear in mind also that Shadowrun's guns aren't too much more advanced than ours, smartlinks and flechette ammo aside.

Warhammer 40k, however? Nnnnnnno. That is a setting where badass technology has proliferated, then languished as people forgot the principles on which it worked. This is, IIRC, the setting explanation for why their guns are huge, permanently low on ammo, and do less damage than the little ones in real life.

Also, it's about as "noir" as an all-Valkyrie orchestra playing Wagner, with Thor on the cymbals.

As a genre, noir does many things, but over-the-top is not really one of them.

[Aria Jenneth]

BTW, an interesting, albeit inevitably flawed, education in firearms and their applicability to things like urban fighting:

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a series of games that seems to be basically written by and for survivalist gun nuts. I recommend it highly, especially (er, actually, exclusively-- Clear Sky sucked and I haven't played the last) the first one. Even if you crank the difficulty to make ammo a rare and precious find, you won't be getting much use out of your combat knife, I promise you.

When the bad guys have guns, you want a gun. When the bad guys do not have guns, you still want a gun. Trust me.

[lallara zhuul]

People seem to forget what ended the age of the knight in the battlefield.

Co-operative tactics of pretty much unarmored foot soldiers.

They dismounted the knight and killed him by sticking a dagger through the eyeholes of the armor, killed him with a specialized weapon like Lucerne hammer or just threw the knight in a fire.

Knights were efficient in warfare only for a certain time until the tactics caught up with them and made them pretty much useless.

One of the most recent example of a war between a nation that embraces knighthood and its traditions against a gun wielding nation for gamers is from Arcanum.

The knights got whooped.

As I said before, its more about the code than the gimmicks.

Being a knight that is.

[Publius Valerius]

Yes and Yes and Yes... some other would add next to the evolution of the infantry... the longbows and the Battle of Crécy... and so many other things... like I said ...many laws are in work most likely.

And like I arleady said.... we can construct some environment where it can still life.... but before we say "Epic WIN"... one test is missing... like I said a world of opportunity cost.... is there still a better and ceaper way which gives a better outcome? (I know Im heartless about this, but how much I love the idea of cyperknights.... nevertheless..... I also think... that in the end just like I already said, a Dusty with some code/flaws, will most likely work the best.).

[Chell Charon]

I think swords fall under socially acceptable weapons. If you insist on having one, you are unlikely to get too many cases on battlefield to wield it. However as part of a uniform a sword should be much more acceptable, and fashionable, than bringing in an AK-4007 to the ball.

Outside terror tactics, I doubt there is little call to have cyber knights close in to do the job in close quarters. However if you are putting down a peasent(slave) revolt numerically outnumbered troops immune to most everything the revolutionaries have, combined with a dusk raid carving into the allready demoralized enemy ranks?

Should keep future revolts suppressed for sometime.

If you actually have to fight on even terms, then opt for warfare strategy and tactics. Using the cyber knights for tasks modernly assigned to elite specialists? For which in space to me, would seem to define capsuleers.

Editing moar stuff in:
When you absolutely do not want to lose troops for any reason, there is little benefit in a dustie over a cyber knight. For instance making sure your personal bodyguards are absolute terrors in any form of combat. From hand to hand and extending perhaps even into space ships. Because if you ever need them, you will be unlikely to have the time to wait for reinforcements or regroups.

And this is where a sword as a backup weapon is handy. If you can save the ammo or acquire a better weapon by using it.

[Publius Valerius]

Editing moar stuff in:
When you absolutely do not want to lose troops for any reason, there is little benefit in a dustie over a cyber knight. For instance making sure your personal bodyguards are absolute terrors in any form of combat. From hand to hand and extending perhaps even into space ships. Because if you ever need them, you will be unlikely to have the time to wait for reinforcements or regroups.

I agree... but also think... that isnt what some people have in plan for the Cyperknight.... (the knight part is just to juciy. Being "just" a different version of infrantry is to some not the way... even when it is: "Captain awesome infrantry")...
By the way: I still think .. it is the code which makes the different in this case. And other thinks - even if the are loveable - are not (sorry).

P.S. Chell I also think... being just a 2.0 version of an bodyguard or some other type of infrantry is possible, but a HUGE BUT what I have seen so far is also not a way which people somehow like to take. So no Dusty 2.0 or Infrantry 2.0  which is sad and takes resources from the more important question: What/How would a code look like?

And this is where a sword as a backup weapon is handy. If you can save the ammo or acquire a better weapon by using it.

No.... before I take a sword with me... I take other stuff... (reality isnt like a game where you have 50 weapons which you can take with you).

So I would like I said look to the opportunity cost... and would most likely go with a "real handy" knifes, handgun... over to Electroshock weapon. I know needs ammo and power, but still if Im out of both... and I havent fuck up the enemy... it is a sign form reality "to get the fuck out and/or to get reinforcement. Like the Bodyguard... which isnt fighting like in the movies (I know damn reality).

So a Sword... is reallsy not a good choice (in a world of opportunity cost)... even when it looks awesome.

[Desiderya]

lots

I agree on today's situation. However, non-rifle rounds ( shotguns included ) usually have problems dealing with bodyarmor. Since we're dealing with a fictional setting it is impossible to judge whether it's easier to protect or to inflict damage. It's hinted that body armors in EVE are far better - speaking relatively to the weapons they face - than what we've available now.

Anyways, ranged weapons are straight up preferable to any form of melee weapon right up to the point where you're out of ammo without someone covering you and something's just jumped at your throat. Besides, shooting into a melee is so much fun.

The usefulness depends highly on the setting. Shadowrun's melee weapons have a very high damage and an edge against armor but semi-automatic guns basically fire twice in the same time. Burst and full auto attacks level the playing field, especially when juicy ammo is loaded. Therefore: Charging down that street against the guy with an assault rifle is a very bad idea, as it should be, metahumans and magic aside.

I wouldn't focus so much on the sword bit, though. hand blades and so on are a thing as well. But that just adds to the points that melee combat isn't for frontline fighters.

However, when talking about cyberknights and the efficiency of swordplay one should keep in mind that it would be someone who's devoted his life to that stuff ( including the part: How to dodge bullets; moving; positioning in a fight stacked against him. ) fighting men and women who are far less trained. Take someone who's trained with firearms since he can walk against some madmen with a sword and it would probably end in a nice killshot followed by a badass comment.

Lastly, cyberknight does not necessarily imply using a sword. I'd say it is using extensive augmentations and training to excel in combat. That includes modern ( "Less civilized" ) combat with all the specialized roles, too. There might be a crack sniper that's implanted to heck with all sorts of useful devices.
On a second thought I think I was wrong about the Dust guys. They're very likely something extremely similar, which might lead to all kinds of interesting opinions from 'traditional' cyberknights.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Just a quick note:  To my understanding, Samurai carried around their swords all the time, for example, but battles were often won with the bow.  I would imagine that a laser rifle isn't much different, and with Khanid practicality coming into play, the swords and axes and things are often just for show (though I have no doubt that they know how to use them, and use them well, and the weapons are entirely functional.  Practicality, again.)

[Horatius Caul]

I think Lallara is right in that the unique selling point of Cyberknights would be the honor code part. Whatever weapons they traditionally used they'd have had to change as warfare changed.

I can imagine that a lot of the tech that the Amarr used to develop the Templars came from Cyberknight innovations. After all, it's just the brain implant that's sleeper tech. The nanomesh healing, the artificial skeleton, the immense performance upgrades as well as armour systems may have come from the Khanid.

One can easily draw parallels to how the heavy armour and mounted weapons were the top-modern weapons systems of the medieval knights, and the only thing that saw the knights phased out was that they became too attached to their outdated technology. If we instead imagine a type of knight that would roll with technological advances as they came, always adopting the most groundbreaking warfare technology and - when it became available - jumping at the chance to improve his body (incidentally, this meshes well with my ideas that the Khanid may have had close ties to a more technologically advanced Takmahl society on Athra) we arrive at a type of warrior that must look very similar to the standard "elite" troops of New Eden.

The march of technology would have given plenty of avenues of technological exploration for the cyberknights, and as each knightly order would have been keen to find the most modern edge it's likely that you'd have divergent specializations at every level of technology. One order decides to master horseback combat, while another masters archery. Some orders master pistol and musket combat, while others delve into siege weapons. A few orders become trench stormers, while some others explore aerial combat. One order claims tank warfare, while another takes on the role of elite special force.

At the conclusion of each technological race, some technologies and strategies would go from being niche to being widespread as a few specialized orders surged to the head. At some point, that technology was the use of biological and cybernetic enhancement - and that day the cyberknights were born as a class unto themselves.

Today I'd imagine that the majority of cyberknights are expert footsoldiers, everything a DUST soldier is except the cloning (although I'd envision that a number of orders will jump at the chance of dust-ification) with various specializations (ship/station/space combat, hostile environments, urban combat, etc). Some would have specialized in niche technologies like MTACs (helped by TCMC interfaces) and spaceship combat (Capsuleer, non-capsuleer, fighter pilots...).

While the sword is a nice motif, and might make a nice sidearm, efforts to make it anything more than an elegant throwback to a less civilized age are weird and difficult to take seriously.