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[Aria Jenneth]

... Gonna have to side with the "swords, wat?" side here. Focusing on melee in an age of devastating beam weapon and projectile fire is foolhardy in the extreme. Swords work well against guns in highly-stylized, typically anime-inspired settings. Eve is not this.

Kai Leng, incidentally, has earned a place as my least-favorite Mass Effect boss evar. He gets to be a viable boss fight for one reason and one reason only: he cheats, spending half to two-thirds of his screen time invulnerable and recharging, forcing you to repeat the same goddamn thirty seconds of gun v. sword again and again. Oh-- and he gets to pop the "I win" cut scene BECAUSE I land a sticky grenade at his ankles as he tries to enter recharge mode.

I decisively outmaneuver him, therefore he wins. Not. Freaking. Cricket.

In essence, he gets super-charged with plot immunity because the devs liked the idea of a cyber ninja boss fight spiced up with a dose of rivalry. Otherwise, cyber-ninja versus cyber-enhanced sniper assassin, to say nothing of a full commando squad? The word is "splat." He's lost before the fight begins, on weapon selection alone.

But he does look oh-so-cool.

I could see swords in a cavalry-charge situation for a speedy, sharp-edged "drive-by," but the age of automatic fire pretty much did for that tactic at the start of World War I. I could also see one as a badge of honor, a mark of status, especially if carrying one didn't slow an otherwise logically-armed cyberknight down significantly. That would relegate them to the status of backup weapon, though. And if you want to take the stealthy approach, a good, modern combat knife is a hell of a lot less noticeable when in use, not to mention easier to slit throats with.

Adding vibro or energy-discharge functions, diamond coating, or a freaking plasma sheathe may make them relevant-- just-- on a modern battlefield, but I tend to think that, even then, they're secondary or tertiary weapons.

Otherwise? Ceremonial use and formal duels. Application beyond that stretches credulity, a lot.

It's like Aria's martial arts short blades: pretty, flashy, impressive on their own limited terms, but also archaic.

[Seriphyn]

But swords are badass.

As are space knights.

[Publius Valerius]

I just figure being an actual warrior knight (as opposed to the RL ones these days) is more about the code of conduct than what weapons you use.

I think it would be even more funnier to think about those things....

Like a code: Use your tradional weapon -- in your case sword -- as final "flourish" against the enemy. I would be some sort of symbol of respect for him.

Or use your tradional weapon -- in your case sword -- for officer duel. Like in this spot: Here

[Saikoyu]

I just figure being an actual warrior knight (as opposed to the RL ones these days) is more about the code of conduct than what weapons you use. Still, I guess a suitable high-tech blade would make a useful hull breaching tool.

I did part of the research once and if you figure out how to create a closed magnetic field, you could create a "blade" of plasma, basically a plasma cutter but with a longer "blade."  Next best thing to a lightsaber, but it would eat fuel like crazy. 

[Aria Jenneth]

If regular infantry weapons aren't really scratching a cyberknight and they can run up and start bushido-blading people, then it starts making more 'sense'.

This makes some sense, except that you'd need some kind of explanation for why you can't make a ranged weapon that does what the sword does. Most settings (anime, etc.) that try to do this use some form of energized matter-conversion, a blade-shaped reality distortion-- stuff like that.

... which generally fits under the heading of "transparent excuse for using swords," much like many an anime has had to come up with some out-there excuse for putting underage girls in cheesecake-ridden combat situations.

As a practical matter, in Eve, I just don't see it. DUST promo footage has given us no reason to think that infantry armor can just shrug off even small arms fire, and even if the armor were, say,  five times as heavy....

"Woops. Sword! Cyberknight-- concentrate fire!"

Splat.

[Silas Vitalia]

If regular infantry weapons aren't really scratching a cyberknight and they can run up and start bushido-blading people, then it starts making more 'sense'.

This makes some sense, except that you'd need some kind of explanation for why you can't make a ranged weapon that does what the sword does. Most settings (anime, etc.) that try to do this use some form of energized matter-conversion, a blade-shamed reality distortion-- stuff like that.

... which generally fits under the heading of "transparent excuse for using swords," much like many an anime has had to come up with some out-there excuse for putting underage girls in cheesecake-ridden combat situations.

As a practical matter, in Eve, I just don't see it. DUST promo footage has given us no reason to think that infantry armor can just shrug off even small arms fire, and even if the armor were, say,  five times as heavy....

"Woops. Sword! Cyberknight-- concentrate fire!"

Splat.

Correct.  It's all about us resolving our 'practical' vs 'that looks cool as hell' battle within ourselves

We all conduct some measure of 'suspension of disbelief' for all sci-fi worlds, as the 'real' would be far less sexy.  We have to come close to the plausibility lines but not stare too closely or it all falls apart. 'Tis a delicate balance.

This is what gives us fun sci-fi space opera with lasers vs the more mundane reality that whichever civilization in New Eden got to space first would just fling a few asteroids at their enemies' home planets and wipe them out permanently. 

[Aria Jenneth]

We all conduct some measure of 'suspension of disbelief' for all sci-fi worlds, as the 'real' would be far less sexy.  We have to come close to the plausibility lines but not stare too closely or it all falls apart. 'Tis a delicate balance.

This is what gives us fun sci-fi space opera with lasers vs the more mundane reality that whichever civilization in New Eden got to space first would just fling a few asteroids at their enemies' home planets and wipe them out permanently.

Well-- yes. Assuming they were comfortable with genocide, which hardly anybody seems to be for any length of time.

One thing that furrows my brow about this kind of "aesthetics versus practicality" discussion is that it seems to me as though CCP resolved it decisively way before most of us started playing. Eve is heavily influenced by the "noir" side of sci fi, and Blade Runner has been named as a particular influence.

I therefore set my suspension of disbelief at "Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion = A-OK," but expect Decker to be out hunting replicants with a heavy pistol instead of a katana.

[Silas Vitalia]

We all conduct some measure of 'suspension of disbelief' for all sci-fi worlds, as the 'real' would be far less sexy.  We have to come close to the plausibility lines but not stare too closely or it all falls apart. 'Tis a delicate balance.

This is what gives us fun sci-fi space opera with lasers vs the more mundane reality that whichever civilization in New Eden got to space first would just fling a few asteroids at their enemies' home planets and wipe them out permanently.

Well-- yes. Assuming they were comfortable with genocide, which hardly anybody seems to be for any length of time.

One thing that furrows my brow about this kind of "aesthetics versus practicality" discussion is that it seems to me as though CCP resolved it decisively way before most of us started playing. Eve is heavily influenced by the "noir" side of sci fi, and Blade Runner has been named as a particular influence.

I therefore set my suspension of disbelief at "Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion = A-OK," but expect Decker to be out hunting replicants with a heavy pistol instead of a katana.

Absolutely. But then again if the replicant shrugs off bullets since there's no internal organs to make him die and then squeezes dekard's head like a mellon, he might have wanted a blade... JK

[Silas Vitalia]

I will say I liked the way Ghost in the Shell series has handled these concepts, with a full-range of cyberization and abilities.  Motoko and Batau on one end as high-end human infantry operatives, and the Yakuza giant-arm robots and plug-in suits on the other end of nastiness. A full range of hidden weaponry on human-appearing cyborgs, and a full range of advanced weaponry to take them out as well.  What the show does portray is that regular humans are generally completely outmatched, if not always outgunned.

[lallara zhuul]

How about personal shields, perhaps blades could be used in the same way as in Dune?

Shields deflect everything fast, but not a blade that approaches slowly...

[Silas Vitalia]

We could also use the DUST soldiers as a baseline - enormous strength, endurance, durability, etc, but still 'flesh'.

I imagine with full-on mechanical replacement parts the cyberknights would be quite a factor improved.

[Aria Jenneth]

Silas:

Agreed. Ghost in the Shell does cybernetics beautifully; I have no real objection to anything there, or further down the tech tree in some cases, being brought into Eve (so long as it's not the capsuleers playing the Major-- they are specialized for something else).


Lallara:

How about personal shields, perhaps blades could be used in the same way as in Dune?

Shields deflect everything fast, but not a blade that approaches slowly...

True, but Dune also came up with a good explanation for why you don't just solve that problem with a laser (which isn't so much fast as functionally instantaneous).

To wit, nuclear kaboom = bad for all concerned.

I think knives in DUST will probably have to do business with personal shields as well as armor, just like everything else.

[Silas Vitalia]

I think the cyberknights might also have a nice niche in the 'mech' area: small hard-wired suits larger than a human, but much smaller than a Caldari MTAC... Again similar in scale to the 'suits' worn in GITS.   MTACs are walking around with heavy ordinance fighting tanks, etc.   These suits are highly maneuverable, small enough to operate in human-sized indoor locations (corridors, bases), and can probably shrug off most small-arms fire. 

= win.

[Aria Jenneth]

In seriousness, Silas, I think it's a mistake to assign the Knights to any specific niche.

Let's make a few assumptions.

(1) Cyberknights have no automatic advantages that no one else can possess.

(2) Cybernetic "kits" are easily customized, and may be designed for certain areas of focus at their core, but adapted for all manner of different roles through modular reconfiguration. This is in keeping with DUST's intended Eve-like fitting scheme.

(3) Quality of such kits, and modular add-ons, may vary.

(4) Cyberknights, as an order, have access to very high-end tech and training.

(5) The Kingdom has access to all the run-of-the-mill ground-pounders it needs. Cyberknights are emphatically not regular forces.

If we take the above as given, the likely role and the purpose of the Cyberknights becomes a bit more clear: probably, they are irregulars in the most interesting sense. Each knight trains heavily in some specific, and possibly unique, role, becoming a specialist in a particular area. They stand out from regular military or security forces both by the training and technical resources available to any given knight and by the freedom they have to set their own tactics and equipment.

An order of well-funded elite agents, sworn to a specific cause (defense of the Kingdom, perhaps from a specific group or specific type of threat, perhaps just in general, being the norm here), and whose loyalty is considered beyond question without solid evidence to the contrary, possessing capabilities and tactics that vary enormously from individual to individual, would be a titanic headache for any hostile organization to try to prepare for and defend against.

Of course, they're probably nearly as much of a headache to try to work with or around; probably the detectives and such of the Khanid Kingdom's finest are known to complain bitterly about certain bits of knightly mischief: "I'd been working on rounding up this ring of bastards for three years-- three years! Then this armored psychopath gets a bee up his backside, breaks up the crucial meeting before we can make the bust, shoots half the participants, and delivers my informant to my boss, trussed up on a plate like some kind of damned trophy!"

Having your loyalty be beyond question doesn't mean that all's fine and dandy with the rank and file, after all, and "knightly order" can start looking a lot like "well-equipped band of vigilantes" if they don't watch their step REAL carefully.

Edit:

Oh-- and the above might provide at least one reason for cyberknights to actually carry swords: initial identification of an otherwise-diverse organization at a glance. Of course, if that's so, carrying a sword in the Kingdom if you're NOT a cyberknight could very well be a serious crime, itself. Call it "impersonating a paladin." 

[Aldrith Shutaq]

How about personal shields, perhaps blades could be used in the same way as in Dune?

Shields deflect everything fast, but not a blade that approaches slowly...

This is indeed what I have always thought would be the main thing that would allow for melee in EVE. There are already personal shields in EVE. If you look at some of the DUST 514 videos, like for the tourney they held for Fanfest, there are temporary, placeable shields that block all incoming fire for a short duration of time. They can be walked through, but not shot through by either side. Now, imagine you wore one of these devices on your armor. You cannot shoot any weapons out of the field it produces, but nobody can shoot into it for 5-10 seconds. This is why you wield a plasma cutter spear which you stab people to death with. Of course you have side arms for when your shields are not active, but I can see a cyber knight equipped in this manner being an extremely effective building-clearer. No need for messy EM shotguns or grenades, just flip the switch before you charge into a room and everyone gets face-banged by an unexpected and unconventional weapon system. This can also be rather intimidating, as seeing one of your comrades get shot is a bit different than seeing them impaled and gutted.

Another shield system I've thought about would be a lower-powered magnetic field shield. Many weapons in EVE are magnetic in nature, such as hybrid shots being propelled with magnetic pulses and laser weapons having a large amount of EM energy. A simple magnetic field with just enough energy to gently deflect and disperse these weapons would be extremely effective. Even metal bullets could be deflected this way if they were somehow given a magnetic charge mid-flight. The only drawback is that this also disrupts friendly weapons travelling through the defense field, hence why you would not be using the same weapons as the enemy.

Imagine it: a group of close-quarters armored troops advancing up a field under a hail of fire, every shot being diverted over and around them as though God Himself were intervening. The enemy begins to panic at the bizarre sight as they march steadily closer, phalanx style under their shield projectors. Even as the troops throw grenades, they end up being flung away to the sides of the formation, the flames of their magnetized plasma explosions simply blowing uselessly into the air. The troops are ordered to fall back from their cover, and that is when the knights charge. Vicious blades, halberds and spears glinting in the sun, or with their own armor-melting energy, propelled with cybernetic limbs that ensure the knights catch up with the fleeing soldiers. The fire-team is cut down in a flurry of screams and bloody limbs in a matter of seconds, much to the horror of other troops fighting nearby. Victory cries are shouted, wounded are finished off, heads are mounted on sticks, and the knights move towards a new target.

Yeah, it's something straight out of 40K, and I fully recognize the gimmicky-ness of it all. But I think it's totally possible. Again, I'm going off of both existing EVE technology and the well-known Amarrian penchant for doing things old-school whenever they can. Remember, these are people who still keep the Book of Records in a hand-written form, painstakingly written by scribes in beautiful calligraphy.

Khanid were famous for being the best infantrymen in all the Empire ever since their fuedal times. I think the Khanid would take enough pride in their traditions to try very hard to bring them to a real fight whenever they can. I mean spare-no-expense try hard. I believe cyber knights would be a very rare sight due to the costs involved with their implants, armor and weapons-systems, much like RL medieval knights. They'd be a warrior class funded by Holders who enjoy having a bit of asthetics and tradition with their war. Not all Holders would consider them cost-effective, but others would like having them around.

Then there's what Aria says, about variance:

In seriousness, Silas, I think it's a mistake to assign the Knights to any specific niche.

Let's make a few assumptions.

(1) Cyberknights have no automatic advantages that no one else can possess.

(2) Cybernetic "kits" are easily customized, and may be designed for certain areas of focus at their core, but adapted for all manner of different roles through modular reconfiguration. This is in keeping with DUST's intended Eve-like fitting scheme.

(3) Quality of such kits, and modular add-ons, may vary.

(4) Cyberknights, as an order, have access to very high-end tech and training.

(5) The Kingdom has access to all the run-of-the-mill ground-pounders it needs. Cyberknights are emphatically not regular forces.

If we take the above as given, the likely role and the purpose of the Cyberknights becomes a bit more clear: probably, they are irregulars in the most interesting sense. Each knight trains heavily in some specific, and possibly unique, role, becoming a specialist in a particular area. They stand out from regular military or security forces both by the training and technical resources available to any given knight and by the freedom they have to set their own tactics and equipment.

An order of well-funded elite agents, sworn to a specific cause (defense of the Kingdom, perhaps from a specific group or specific type of threat, perhaps just in general, being the norm here), and whose loyalty is considered beyond question without solid evidence to the contrary, possessing capabilities and tactics that vary enormously from individual to individual, would be a titanic headache for any hostile organization to try to prepare for and defend against.

Of course, they're probably nearly as much of a headache to try to work with or around; probably the detectives and such of the Khanid Kingdom's finest are known to complain bitterly about certain bits of knightly mischief: "I'd been working on rounding up this ring of bastards for three years-- three years! Then this armored psychopath gets a bee up his backside, breaks up the crucial meeting before we can make the bust, shoots half the participants, and delivers my informant to my boss, trussed up on a plate like some kind of damned trophy!"

Having your loyalty be beyond question doesn't mean that all's fine and dandy with the rank and file, after all, and "knightly order" can start looking a lot like "well-equipped band of vigilantes" if they don't watch their step REAL carefully.

Exactly some thoughts I've had too. Even if a cyberknight with fancy, pretty medival weapons is not viable, this situation certainly is. And the variance thing is also a huge deal; because they would be independently funded and be following varied schools of thought and warfare, you'd probably be hard pressed to find identical knights if they're not in the same order of specialists. One school favors speed and agility enhancments with occular implants to help them with their sniper laser rifles, while this other school favors strength implants so they can carry their tank-grade heavy weapons over the shoulder. These other ones look like a normal foot soldier squad, until you figure out they've been trained to mentally direct swarms of mini-drones to clear buildings. So much is possible it's mind-boggling.