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Author Topic: Let there be WAR!  (Read 15890 times)

Mathra Hiede

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #30 on: 30 Apr 2012, 22:59 »

On some level for RP wars I think OOC co-operation is needed, if only to try and make sure decents fights can happen - say if the OOC leader of (a) 'leaks' that they will be doing something at 'x' time and 'y' place leader (B) could then lead a gang to find out/attack.

I assume there are enough spies in EM for this to be unnecessary. And I'm not sure that most of our immersionist leadership would be happy with this concept. We don't pick wars for good fights, we pick wars we think we can win, or at least make a difference*.

There are infinite choices, it could be an extraction, a convoy, supply dump anything - but even just a simple well natured and hopefully returned tip-off would be invaluable to getting some pew and real RP over this.

Serious question: What counts as "real RP" out of this?  What analogy are people using where they think that conversations and cocktails in the same room as people you were shooting at yesterday, and will shoot at tomorrow, makes sense?

If we're playing WWII pilots during the war, how much RP can there possibly be between Adolf Galland and Bob Tuck? Perhaps we could have witty repartee like cold war spies at the embassy ball... if we didn't have an actual shooting war going on, but it kind of feels like we do.




*It's slightly more complicated than that.

In EM's case i'm not sure - being almost completely immersionist is great so I would assume you would have to have some decent spies and require a bit more planning.

I classify real RP is anything where my character has a chance to react and interact with other pilots, whether in space or talking in the bar with fellow pilots afterwards or even if you wanted to try and force RP between competitors an IGS post about how they brought the fight which gives you at least a potentially plausible place to say "Your a mad pilot, I still hate you but damn you can fly well... minnie scum"
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Karmilla Strife

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #31 on: 30 Apr 2012, 23:08 »

I look at it from the perspective of my limited experience in similar situations.

When I was on my first tour of Afghanistan I ended up in an Iranian restaurant, smoking hookah, eating banana ice cream, and chatting with a group of eleven Taliban celebrating a birthday party. Now I'm sure part of it was the culture, and part was that none of us were armed on either side, but we enjoyed that night. They talked about their culture, we spoke about ours. It turns out their idea of American culture came from satellite TV transmissions of professional wrestling, so they thought all Americans were like Hulk Hogan. They laughed when we told them he only had two children as most of them had many more.

In all it was a singular and unique experience, one that helped define my life.  While we were there, unarmed and unable to fight each other, we bridged some sort of cultural divide. As soon as we exited those doors though, you can bet both sides were scrambling back to their "base" and making intel reports and going back to business of killing each other.

I think that some cross-culture RP can be amazingly interesting, but I don't think that everyone can be super-best-friends for any length of time.

Just my 2isk
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #32 on: 30 Apr 2012, 23:58 »

Also, there's always Local. A policy of stony silence in wartime has a lot to recommend it, but it's not much ... fun, y'know? Some of the best RP convos I've had have been Local mid-war chatter with a docked opponent. Idealistic rookies are particularly fun.

Then, also, we really ought to have that OOC "War Stories" thread to bring out the tales that will never see the IC light of day.

Ulphus, in principle I certainly agree that wars are best selected for practical reasons. What really seems to be lacking on a large scale is the necessary IC attitude to generate more wars-- that is, more aggressive, more judgmental, less understanding and empathetic.

Essentially, IC capsuleer culture seems to default to "cosmopolitan liberal"-- open-minded, nonjudgmental, cautious of condemning others even if their ways of life differ markedly from one's own. Slavery and theologies of conquest have been reduced to near-pulverized skeletons of once-proud steeds.

That needs to change. The rest, even without any set script, will fall into place if we can alter the culture. A game full of peacemakers, open-minded folk of good faith, and general-purpose conciliators will produce few grand conflicts.

You, yes, YOU, dear reader, can start helping now! Despise thy neighbor! Covet his belongings and envy his successes! Speak bitterly, with barbed and envenomed tongue! Denounce the voices of "moderation" or "tolerance" as fools and traitors! (Remember-- failure by another to make war upon a hated enemy is itself cause to make war!) Become a beacon of entrenched hate and lasting ill-will for your community!

The atrocities of tomorrow begin with you, today!
« Last Edit: 01 May 2012, 00:15 by Aria Jenneth »
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #33 on: 01 May 2012, 00:12 »

... As a side note, the "liberal center" makes an excellent "side" in various conflicts for storytelling purposes so long as it is in the minority. It becomes much less interesting as its influence grows. Those who do what the average secular humanist would recognize as "the right thing" should always be in the minority in a "noir" setting.

This necessity casts most of us as villains (if not necessarily incomprehensible or inhuman ones) of one sort or another, be we unethical crooks, drooling fanatics, or just plain misguided. And that, is perfectly okay.

One can be sympathetic, reasonable within certain bounds, well-intentioned, and even principled-- and also horribly wrong. The more hardline Amarr roleplayers have been cheerfully doing this for years; we could use a lot more of it.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2012, 00:18 by Aria Jenneth »
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #34 on: 01 May 2012, 02:09 »

Funny thing. I chose to make my character an open minded sweetheart because I thought that was the minority in EVE RP. I expected everybody would be hardliners, patriots, nationalists, pirates, scoundrels, bigots, and all manner of scum sucking nastiness.

So I figured hey, I'll be something different and stand out a bit by being that one nice person. Turns out I'm just another person who is softening up EVE RP or something. vOv

Mathra Hiede

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #35 on: 01 May 2012, 02:44 »

Funny thing. I chose to make my character an open minded sweetheart because I thought that was the minority in EVE RP. I expected everybody would be hardliners, patriots, nationalists, pirates, scoundrels, bigots, and all manner of scum sucking nastiness.

So I figured hey, I'll be something different and stand out a bit by being that one nice person. Turns out I'm just another person who is softening up EVE RP or something. vOv

Not at all, if you set out to be that minority then you did a good thing - the issue I think Aria is talking about is the fact that we have lost those great factions to the crap thats happened and the minority has been the only sort of stable ground on which you can stand.

Hopefully however, we can build the radicals up a bit to let your area flow back into a minority again for a nice counterbalance to EVE's dark gritty story, because currently... fairies in space.
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Jev North

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #36 on: 01 May 2012, 02:58 »

My first association was ponies, but yeah.
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Chell Charon

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #37 on: 01 May 2012, 04:41 »


You, yes, YOU, dear reader, can start helping now! Despise thy neighbor! Covet his belongings and envy his successes! Speak bitterly, with barbed and envenomed tongue! Denounce the voices of "moderation" or "tolerance" as fools and traitors! (Remember-- failure by another to make war upon a hated enemy is itself cause to make war!) Become a beacon of entrenched hate and lasting ill-will for your community!

The atrocities of tomorrow begin with you, today!

Nice pep talk. I'll take it.    :twisted:
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #38 on: 01 May 2012, 04:58 »

The summit-of-leaders thing works up to a certain point: the point where various leaders are actually representing groups that are at war with each other.

Which, unfortunately, thanks to TEA, is the status quo for any such summit these days. You also run into the issue that we can't actually enforce any kind of sanctions or binding agreements, among others - the NEA as envisioned originally was a great idea, but what amounts to a player-run CONCORD Assembly is just... well, doomed to failure due to an inability to actually have any measurable effect.

If you've got ideas for how to get around those problems, by all means - but in the meantime, it's best to use the channel as it's currently set up - for more structured debate than the Summit (or more accurately, its noisier omg-look-at-me residents) allows.

Actually I am not sure it would be a good idea that sanctions could be enforced. I am not sure it would have been good for it to be a sort of UN space thing. It limitates somehow the freedom and choices of each entity and binds them to a central authority, which is not really cool and I am sure that nobody really wants to be tied to that. Not that the UN IRL are really meaningful anyway, but thats another story..

No really, I just would like to see the NEA (or something else) to be a bridge between leaders. Something that makes everything more official and public. Something that puts responsabilities into the hands of each respected/famous/infamous leader. Something that sharpens the "actions in eve have consequences duh" side of the game. It would just be a venue like any other one, really. So yes, it is up to everyone to make it work, or not vOv.

:yar:
War... War is good.

John your not happy unless you have at least half of the cluster to shoot at.

On some level for RP wars I think OOC co-operation is needed, if only to try and make sure decents fights can happen - say if the OOC leader of (a) 'leaks' that they will be doing something at 'x' time and 'y' place leader (B) could then lead a gang to find out/attack.

There are infinite choices, it could be an extraction, a convoy, supply dump anything - but even just a simple well natured and hopefully returned tip-off would be invaluable to getting some pew and real RP over this.

I am pretty sure it works for some, but tbh I am not fond either of arranged and/or rigged fights. It kind of spoils the whole interest I have in a conflict. It makes it look artificial, and not natural at all. This is why I also never really like OOC coordination about IC stuff that has not happened yet.

... As a side note, the "liberal center" makes an excellent "side" in various conflicts for storytelling purposes so long as it is in the minority. It becomes much less interesting as its influence grows. Those who do what the average secular humanist would recognize as "the right thing" should always be in the minority in a "noir" setting.

This necessity casts most of us as villains (if not necessarily incomprehensible or inhuman ones) of one sort or another, be we unethical crooks, drooling fanatics, or just plain misguided. And that, is perfectly okay.

One can be sympathetic, reasonable within certain bounds, well-intentioned, and even principled-- and also horribly wrong. The more hardline Amarr roleplayers have been cheerfully doing this for years; we could use a lot more of it.

This.

Lyn may be sweet and detached and very tolerant, she is also a rigid CONCORD extremist and a fanatic/slave to her mindset, and she will - almost - never hesitate to stab a friend if he starts to oppose her ideals.


On a side note I also think that people unconsciously try to act as a balance to certain things of the lore. Before, when the state of New Eden was more of a Cold War complicated thing, with racial enemies being the top layer of one's opponents, and subfactional political enemies being the first layer of direct opponents, we firstly had more subfaction conflicts (what kind of policies to use against these filthy slavers, a Midularish firm conciliation or a freedom fighter approach ? especially in the frame of the glorious days of CVA vs UK), but secondly the very state of a cold war policed by the allmighty CONCORD and a progressive mindset under rulers like Heideran, Midular, Gariushi and Foiritan made people naturally going unconsciously against that state of things. Players always tried to add more conflict in a stale awkward state of galactic affairs. Now, it is quite the contrary : everyone is at war, everything went wrong, the new leaders are either radicals or weird TEA characters (zombie queen, etc), and people naturally try to pick up characters that try to act as a balance to that state of things.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2012, 05:00 by Lyn Farel »
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Ulphus

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #39 on: 01 May 2012, 05:50 »

Quote
Ulphus, in principle I certainly agree that wars are best selected for practical reasons. What really seems to be lacking on a large scale is the necessary IC attitude to generate more wars-- that is, more aggressive, more judgmental, less understanding and empathetic.

I can be plenty judgmental, And my empathy is reserved for people who aren't slavers of the Matari. But I'm also pragmatic. Does it serve my interests to insult publicly someone who could potentially shoot at the people I want shot, even if they are a decadent cultural imperialist Gallente? No? Then let's not tell them. Can I have any appreciable impact on the potential target of a war dec? No? Then is there a point in throwing one?

Quote
Essentially, IC capsuleer culture seems to default to "cosmopolitan liberal"-- open-minded, nonjudgmental, cautious of condemning others even if their ways of life differ markedly from one's own. Slavery and theologies of conquest have been reduced to near-pulverized skeletons of once-proud steeds.

There does seem to be a lot of that about, but I don't think I'd include myself in that number. And, from experience, once you start avoiding slavers, and then people who sleep with slavers by choice, and people who don't see a problem going to balls put on by slavers... Well, you start having a shortage of people to RP with. And I don't really blame people for choosing to have people to RP with over being justifiably judgmental, especially if they don't have a corp or alliance with enough ambient RP to get them their fix if they don't.



« Last Edit: 01 May 2012, 05:52 by Ulphus »
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Graanvlokkie

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #40 on: 01 May 2012, 06:57 »

The only advantage I can see to arranging victory conditions or parameters OOC is that when it comes to storytelling there can be a clear winner and loser. Without a winner and loser any story is just ongoing, and there is no completion to any story arc that the sides are trying to tell.
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #41 on: 01 May 2012, 10:34 »

I can be plenty judgmental, And my empathy is reserved for people who aren't slavers of the Matari.

Did I say or imply otherwise? (Also: the people who ARE slavers, or pro-slavery, for the Matari are a kind of select group these days.)

Quote
But I'm also pragmatic. Does it serve my interests to insult publicly someone who could potentially shoot at the people I want shot, even if they are a decadent cultural imperialist Gallente? No? Then let's not tell them. Can I have any appreciable impact on the potential target of a war dec? No? Then is there a point in throwing one?

"Pragmatic" is in the eye of the beholder. In your position, is it appropriate to be shooting at culturally-imperialist Gallente? Probably not, or not yet. If the Amarr and Caldari weren't around, that might change things, but as it is you have more immediate concerns. But what about the Caldari, who aid and abet the Imperial machine, even as they outlaw slavery themselves? What about the "neutrals" who talk out both sides of their faces and do all manner of business that profits the Amarr, willfully ignorant of their role in supporting the Empire?

From certain angles, particularly the protectionist, traditionalist angle, these are as much enemies as the Amarr themselves-- and might be greater threats. What's more, larger targets could be seen, pragmatically, as forces that must be opposed for the sake of the homeland (whatever that might be), even if they cannot easily be overcome; the alternative, from this perspective, is honorless surrender.

Let me be clear: the Minmatar/Amarr front is in better shape, RP conflict-wise, than others (always has been), and I regard EM, PIE, U'K and so on as role models in setting up sustained RP warfare. Even that fire, however, seems to want a fresh armload of dry kindling, and a few logs, at least from the Amarr side, and maybe someone to blow onto the coals.

As for the rest of us, we probably need all that, plus a bunch of newspaper and a match.

Quote
There does seem to be a lot of that about, but I don't think I'd include myself in that number.

To the degree that's true, you're less the subject of these remarks than an example of what we need more of.

Quote
And, from experience, once you start avoiding slavers, and then people who sleep with slavers by choice, and people who don't see a problem going to balls put on by slavers... Well, you start having a shortage of people to RP with.

Aye, there's the rub. 'Course, it need not actually inhibit RP. Forum wrangling and so on aside, some of the most fun you (or I, at least) can have in a "bar" or wherever entails trying to win over sworn enemies, or else to weaken their morale and compromise their resolve.

In Neverwinter Nights online RP, I used to play a tiny, weak, fragile, pretty, obviously evil, but just as obviously tormented and near-helpless, character. She was an enslaved minion to a much more powerful demonic entity, and carefully calculated to push every chivalrous button the good-aligned PC's possessed: paladin-bait. This was a blast, playing on heroes' empathy and desire to "save" my hapless, literally damned character while making a strong case for the philosophy of Chaotic Evil as, in fact, the "true" path (to wit, "That the strong rule and the weak suffer is a rule of all lands in all times. We just don't try to pretend otherwise").

Tempting heroes is FUN.

Also, for the record, 4th Ed's revision of demons into mindless killing machines is the most stupidly-boring waste....

Anyhow. The above is impossible to pull off in Eve, of course, where weakness inspires scorn instead of pity, and also more morally unambiguous than I like these days. Still, playing a diametrically-opposed, but chatty, character is a perfectly good way to get some excellent RP in.

Quote
And I don't really blame people for choosing to have people to RP with over being justifiably judgmental, especially if they don't have a corp or alliance with enough ambient RP to get them their fix if they don't.

Of course not. Nor do I. In fact, my own character, in her own way, has historically been a voice for moderation with regard to virtually everybody but Sansha's Nation.

I don't "blame" anybody. I just see a problem, widely recognized as a real problem, and suggest a fix. Where the fix works, that's good. Where it isn't needed, that's fine.

... So, if you don't need it, then, as Aria would put it, these words are not meant for you.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #42 on: 01 May 2012, 11:42 »


Let me be clear: the Minmatar/Amarr front is in better shape, RP conflict-wise, than others (always has been), and I regard EM, PIE, U'K and so on as role models in setting up sustained RP warfare. Even that fire, however, seems to want a fresh armload of dry kindling, and a few logs, at least from the Amarr side, and maybe someone to blow onto the coals.


For almost a year now, since KotMC collapsed, I would not even be so sure of the good shape of the Minmatar/Amarr front. I do not say this to spit on PIE for which I have a lot of respect, but we have not heared from them much for something like a year now. We hear a little from COURT too, but well. From my current experience the Amarr side is not in better shape than the gallente side. The two active fronts are the Minmatar one and the Caldari, especially the Minmatar that constitutes something like more than 50% of the empire factionned stuff on the IGS alone. No wonder that we see both of them trying more and more to "get along". The summit is full of Minmatar too.

One does not need that many active RP loyalist corps to make himself heard. It was the case at the time of KotMC too, by its simple presence on the RP scene the Amarr were very outspoken (especially bickering each other, but not only, they were stuck between 2 enemies). Tera Matarr and Skadi are quite similar in that fashion in the sense that they are very outspoken. The Caldari have even more RP entities to my knowledge, but are far less outspoken, which means that we see them less.
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Desiderya

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #43 on: 01 May 2012, 12:05 »

I really would like to hear of all the active caldari corps out there that are - above all - visible. There's I-RED and 4TH, but from what I notice that's more a couple of individuals that come forth from time to time, and not as an entity.
But I might be living under a rock.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Let there be WAR!
« Reply #44 on: 01 May 2012, 12:19 »

I-RED concentrates more on pew-pew than RP. We generally don't talk about how we're going to shoot you. We just start shooting you (or die trying in some cases).

I-RED's daily face in RP from what I see is mostly me and Simca. We've been trying to make a regular presence and show of I-RED lately, but with John being one of actions instead of words and the rest of I-RED roleplayers only coming out of the woodwork when we're slandered... it's difficult.
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