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[Jade Constantine]

I was in the eve radio channel when two random characters I'd never seen before (with varied corp histories) popped up during Gianturco's demolishing of the Massively guy on radio. The first one posted an address he claimed belonged to Gainturco (he also had it in his bio). The second one said something about calling in the "rape vans". Everyone present called for them to STFU and get banned. But it wasn't long until the undercurrent changed to "look how terrible non goon players are, you are worse than anything the mittani did!"

Call me suspicious but I'm just not sure that any actual eve players are stupid enough to lose long term characters doing something they know they are going to get banned for in such a stupid way. It stank of being a false flag operation. No way to be sure either way, but it was pretty conveniently "on message" with the counter offensive against the media launched by the goon legions.

Everyone agrees this stuff is crap whoever does it and no ooc harrassment should be accepted whatsoever.

[Bacchanalian]

v0v I guess I see it differently.  Telling someone who to grief IN A FUCKING GAME is different than inviting mouthbreathing insane neckbeards (let's say, like the one who hangs out in a lot of RP channels and can't type to save his life and threatened to find and knife Verone in person) to go to Mittens' house and cause bodily harm to him and his family.

But I guess I'm just crazy.  This is the same crowd of people who think blowing up other people's ships is mean and criminal and equivalent to genocide or something.

Seriously, the mind boggles.  You people never cease to amaze me.

[orange]

It probably would have been fine if The Mittani hadn't encouraged the griefing of another player with the intent to have that player kill himself.

I think he could have easily said, "The character name is The Wis.  He is a classic "spaceships-is-serious-business" player.  The name again is The Wis."  And there wouldn't have been any story.

I think that is how many veteran players can interpret what The Mittani said, but that is not what he said and the perception of those who have not been around Eve for a while may not appreciate the vernacular.

[Bacchanalian]

Damn, then I wish someone would find the addresses of everyone who's ever told me to die in a fire on the internet so Goon neckbeards can go murder their families.  It's only fair.

[Bong-cha Jones]

Damn, then I wish someone would find the addresses of everyone who's ever told me to die in a fire on the internet so Goon neckbeards can go murder their families.  It's only fair.

Why are you continuing the line that people are being hypocritical when nobody has posted that it's ok for people to threaten Mittani (and his wife etc) in real-life?

[orange]

Damn, then I wish someone would find the addresses of everyone who's ever told me to die in a fire on the internet so Goon neckbeards can go murder their families.  It's only fair.

That isn't what I said or suggested.  I think the person who provided The Mittani's address did something wrong and should be banned from Eve for some period of time.  I think the person who suggested committing a crime needs to attend some counselling, possibly have a restraining order set against them, and banned from Eve (for much longer than 30-days).

I suggested that The Mittani's choices of words was poor and when seen from an outsider's perspective can be interpreted as being horrible.

[Mizhara]

Bacch, you continue to construct gigantic arguments and viewpoints that no one here has even once gotten near. Secondly, you seem rather hellbent on minimizing and even defending Mittani's actions. Calling it "griefing" instead of the harassment is was, and so on. You know it wasn't just about 'blowing up spaceships', right? You of all people should know there's probably not a single person here who finds "blowing up spaceships" to be mean.

It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.

[Caellach Marellus]

v0v I guess I see it differently.  Telling someone who to grief IN A FUCKING GAME is different than inviting mouthbreathing insane neckbeards (let's say, like the one who hangs out in a lot of RP channels and can't type to save his life and threatened to find and knife Verone in person) to go to Mittens' house and cause bodily harm to him and his family.

But I guess I'm just crazy.  This is the same crowd of people who think blowing up other people's ships is mean and criminal and equivalent to genocide or something.

Seriously, the mind boggles.  You people never cease to amaze me.

I agree with this to a point, it is different.

However it doesn't absolve the former (what Alex did) from being wrong, encouraging in game harassment with the goal of hoping he kills himself is wrong. Had he just said "If you want a laugh this guy's name is "The Wis" he's a serious internet spaceships guy and produces sweet tears" no one would batter an eyelid... well ok a few would but then we're talking about a game where corps have forums dedicated to posting "Customer tears" and such calls would be put down.

Regardless, Mittani crossed the line.


But the latter is morally irreprehensible, taking matters into real life where you hand out real life information that can be used to not only threaten someone but their loved ones is stupid beyond word definition. Mittani gave an in game character name, he kept the information dealt to a purely game basis, yes there was reference to RL repercussions of the act, but he didn't compromise someone's RL safety with the information presented.

So people who think that this balances things out or "turns the tables" have a strong inability to measure severity. Mittani crossed the line with a great big two footed jump. The latter action launched themselves over it with a catapult and can't see the line on the horizon anymore.

[Wanoah]

The overreaction is crazy. It was maybe an ill-judged joke, but quite honestly who hasn't made those while under the influence? A sober apology should have been sufficient, but CCP's response is unbelievably po-faced. It's like they've never played Eve.

[Hamish Grayson]

It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.

Bacch was "acting like a goon" before the first goon had ever heard of eve.   He was a pioneer of the persona. 

[Louella Dougans]

A sober apology should have been sufficient, but CCP's response is unbelievably po-faced. It's like they've never played Eve.

i think there is a lot more to this than is apparent or has been revealed.

Agendas wrapped in agendas. Things being used as a pretext to do other things.

it's all rather depressing.

and various persons and their gloatings is really quite distasteful.

[Bacchanalian]

v0v I guess I see it differently.  Telling someone who to grief IN A FUCKING GAME is different than inviting mouthbreathing insane neckbeards (let's say, like the one who hangs out in a lot of RP channels and can't type to save his life and threatened to find and knife Verone in person) to go to Mittens' house and cause bodily harm to him and his family.

But I guess I'm just crazy.  This is the same crowd of people who think blowing up other people's ships is mean and criminal and equivalent to genocide or something.

Seriously, the mind boggles.  You people never cease to amaze me.

However it doesn't absolve the former (what Alex did) from being wrong, encouraging in game harassment with the goal of hoping he kills himself is wrong. Had he just said "If you want a laugh this guy's name is "The Wis" he's a serious internet spaceships guy and produces sweet tears" no one would batter an eyelid

And here's my big problem with most of this thread.

I think Lallante on FHC (typically among the worst of the shitposters) had a rare moment of clarity and said it best, so I'll just c/p his post rather than put it in my own words:

The difference is its hard if not impossible to believe that Mittens actually wanted or believed it possible that they could collectively troll that guy into suicide. He meant it as a joke, which makes him a drunk, dumb, insensitive prick.  But as his apology shows and anyone who has actually had dealings with him could tell you, he isn't actually an evil baby eating cunt who genuinely wants people to kill themselves.

Mel gibson on the other hand is ACTUALLY an anti-semite.  The views he expresses while drunk are his true views, not just some drunken showing-off shock humour to his goonfleet of faggot brownnosers.

tl;dr - Mittens can be a douchebag, but he isnt THAT much of a douchebag.  He fucked up and went too far with a joke, rather than revealing his "true" evil nature.

Regardless, Mittani crossed the line.

That really nails it down tbh.  He made a joke in extremely poor taste.  He did not show up at the guy's door with a loaded gun, sit down on his couch, hand the guy the gun and encourage him to put it in his mouth and pull the trigger.  But you wouldn't know that from some of the reactions I've read.  Half of them make this out to be a case where Alex went up on stage with the express intent of ending this guy's life and maliciously did his best to make sure it happened.  And to me, intent matters. 

The overreaction is crazy. It was maybe an ill-judged joke, but quite honestly who hasn't made those while under the influence? A sober apology should have been sufficient, but CCP's response is unbelievably po-faced. It's like they've never played Eve.

Yay, someone who gets it.

It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.

Bacch was "acting like a goon" before the first goon had ever heard of eve.   He was a pioneer of the persona. 

 

Confirming I'm an evil puppy killing maniac who stalks people on the internet and goes out of his way to ruin their lives at any opportunity.

[Hamish Grayson]

 

Confirming I'm an evil puppy killing maniac who stalks people on the internet and goes out of his way to ruin their lives at any opportunity.

Is that how you see the goons?  BTW, I meant that as props.  Sort of.

[Bacchanalian]

Some of them.      Maybe I'm more thinking of 4chan, to be fair. 

And yes, in EVE I'm an internet asshole.  Because that's EVE.  v0v

[Jade Constantine]

Here's the thing Bacc. I don't really give much of a fuck about Mittani's player. Whats important to me here is that Eve Online collectively wakes up and realizes that the culture of out of game bullying to metagame a "victory" is corrosive and leads down a dark path. You know me, I'm quite happy to authorize an enemy corp in game is camped into a station for weeks, that their every last mission runner is hunted down and assassinated and then make an RP post on galnet about the cowardice of the leader who refuses to undock while his or her troops are dying pointlessly. In some games that would be considered griefing - in this one it is part of the game. It is also precisely in-game and in-character.

But there are limits and you and I both know what they are. When Goonswarm decided to grief the BOB leader "lady scarlet" from the game they infilitrated the BOB forums (not a hard task) and took rl pictures of the player then mocked her mercilessly for months for being overweight. On forums, in local, with mocking avatars, with photoshopped pictures of her face on Jabba the Hutt for heavens sake. That was OOC bullying designed to metagame a "win" against an eve organization and frankly if that women had been slightly unhinged I could see her shooting somebody in the face for real.

The point is keep the bloody ingame pressure ingame and it remains healthy. Move it out of game and it becomes an arms race of fuckery that will eventually get somebody killed or thrown in prison.

When I was on the CSM the goons sent a letter to the people I was working for alleging I was working as an internet prostitute along with links of a website where they'd copied the old la maison content next to text list of sexual services I was offering for real money on the internet. This came from a wonderful anonymous hotmail completely untraceable - next day several prominent goons put the same links into a forum thread titled "do we want this kind of person on the CSM." On the goon wiki there is a real life picture of me with the description "put's date rape drugs in the soft drinks of local school children."

Now, if these guys lived in the UK and I could prove a link to their ISP we'd have been in court by now. But huzzah, they are in the US and international law suits don't work too well. So its just another example of internet harrassment and ooc bullying in eve online.

But this is what happens if CCP does not take a stern line on this shit.

Now on the Mittani ... having slept on this for a few days I'm now convinced that what should have happened there is he was simply disbarred from the CSM and banned from ever running again without the in-game ban. CCP should have said "you brought the game into disrepute despite being warned not to (allegedly by other members of the CSM)". They are within their rights to prevent any player from running and potentially representing the company to the wider world - they should have done this.

Instead doing it on the eula/tos and 30 day ban leading to temp removal from the CSM was a messy solution that allows all sorts of people to claim legal loopholes and will make the whole business flair up again next year.

If CCP had simply done the "CSM chair removed for bringing the game into disrepute" then that becomes the headline rather than "Alexander Gianturco is a cyberbully" and he'd probably be much happier with it too. And its got the additional benefit of being precisely true to what happens. The CSM chair as a duty to represent the game in a good light. Mittani betrayed that duty and I don't think anyone would seriously argue otherwise.

Now. In the case of idiots that post people's addresses and order the "rape vans". Game ban. Its that simple. Same for people that post people's real life pictures next to allegations they are child-rapists. I hope we can agree on that Bacchanalian.

And that being the case - what is there really to argue about?