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[Myyona]

I am in agreement with Senn. Heth cannot be in the position he is without some major support among the Caldari no matter how hard we wish it was not true. Both among the mega corp CEOs and the common population.

To be against his administration and co-operating with Gallente is treason against the State. I do not think the Caldari are more refined than that. Heck, co-operating with the Gallente is enough to qualify.

[Matariki Rain]

While not claiming to be an expert on matters Caldari, isn't one of the ongoing tensions there about whether each new political development is consistent with the concepts of Raata? I had the impression that some considered that statism for the sake of statism or personal glorification--as opposed to proper meritocracy and willingness to make hard choices and sacrifices for the greater good--was un-Caldari.

[Seriphyn]

I'd just point out that by most [Western] standards, the State is "Not a Nice Place to Live", and is generally authoritarian, near-dystopic. Not that the people FEEL it's a dystopia, but you can bet most of us here would end up as Disassociated in Caldari society. The price of being Teh Awsum and Perfect In Every Way (from many players' mindsets; it also comes across as the perfect Republican/Tea Party haven) is that there is no concept of 'the social body' (in the sense of social security or welfare) or a civil society. It's a dictatorship, so a dictator acting like a dictator shouldn't surprise anyone. This may offend our Westen Liberal Sensibilities, but that's orientalism for you.

Heck, I don't see anyone commenting on the children of the Disassociated, the childen of their children, and so forth. Epic shantytowns outside Caldari major cities composed of 25% of people who actually failed to do their job (or perhaps they were born with a physical disability that prevented them from doing so, or maybe they had severe domestic problems such as child abuse that scarred them etc. < nobody ever considers that), and 75% of people who were unfortunately born there out of circumstance.

So Heth arresting anyone on a whim is just Another Day there. Ditch your RL mindset and immerse yourself as a Caldari IC, full indoctrinated and all, and you won't see a problem.

[Senn Typhos]

I'd just point out that by most [Western] standards, the State is "Not a Nice Place to Live", and is generally authoritarian, near-dystopic. Not that the people FEEL it's a dystopia, but you can bet most of us here would end up as Disassociated in Caldari society. The price of being Teh Awsum and Perfect In Every Way (from many players' mindsets; it also comes across as the perfect Republican/Tea Party haven) is that there is no concept of 'the social body' (in the sense of social security or welfare) or a civil society. It's a dictatorship, so a dictator acting like a dictator shouldn't surprise anyone. This may offend our Westen Liberal Sensibilities, but that's orientalism for you.

Heck, I don't see anyone commenting on the children of the Disassociated, the childen of their children, and so forth. Epic shantytowns outside Caldari major cities composed of 25% of people who actually failed to do their job (or perhaps they were born with a physical disability that prevented them from doing so, or maybe they had severe domestic problems such as child abuse that scarred them etc. < nobody ever considers that), and 75% of people who were unfortunately born there out of circumstance.

So Heth arresting anyone on a whim is just Another Day there. Ditch your RL mindset and immerse yourself as a Caldari IC, full indoctrinated and all, and you won't see a problem.

This, pretty much. It's not supposed to be a pretty place.

[Desiderya]

The State offers its citizens the best and the worst in living conditions. As long as you keep in line, do your job, uphold the laws and so forth, life can be fairly pleasant and productive. But for those who are not cut out for this strict, disciplined regime life quickly becomes intolerable. They lose their respect, family, status, everything, and the only options left to them are suicide or exile. Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules.

And also from the civire ancestry about 'dissenters'

The cold discipline of Caldari society does not appeal to everyone, nor is everyone happy with the stranglehold that corporate rulers have on everyday life. While not outright rebellious, dissenters nonetheless invest considerable time and effort in trying to change the system from within. The State keeps a close eye on these individuals.

Ditch your RL mindset and immerse yourself as a Caldari IC, full indoctrinated and all, and you won't see a problem.

And that's just you going 'play like I've always portrayed my IC enemies'. Sure, everyone's brainwashed and that's why things are like they are. Not loving Heth as a development for the faction, but grounded in PF are a couple of facts, most of them already quoted above.
The caldari way of life is benefitting the caldari people - those that are willing/able to adhere to the rules. Even more so after Heth's 'New Meritocracy'. That does not mean that everyone's living on a happy pony farm, but for the majority this works extraordinarily well. And those that fell out of the system are probably not 'citizens' anymore. That's the harsh reality of hypercapitalism and apparently a price most caldari ( except dissenters ) are willing to pay.
Next is the successful attack on Luminaire, that certainly raised the approval rates, even today.

I would argue that Heth is still in power because he must have a lot of support. He's not that good a politician to play people (ooc knowledge, basically).
So he's still wielding almost dictatorial powers, is a huge racist and pretty paranoid about traitors. That's not the nicest enviroment, and I'm pretty sure Ishukone is feeling that mistrust and the open grudge pretty well. As far as claiming Ishukone to be traitors to the state I'd be careful, since merely having friendly (trade) relations with the federation is their strategy to strengthen the State. It's a different one than the patriots would use, but the end goal is the same.

[Seriphyn]

How is it playing like I've always portrayed my IC enemies if you subsequently agree?

This is the problem with discussing PF with people from this forum and in-game. Everyone is so on-guard that if someone who RPs one faction makes an arbitrary assessment of another faction (particularly hostile) then it's all seen in a negative light because people will interpret that as that player trying to "shoot down" that faction as "bad" because it is follows 'evil' concepts like indoctrination, fascism, etc.

If I was a Caldari RPer and said the same things there wouldn't be an issue. EVE RPers seriously need to drop this Orientalist mindset that any word that isn't in the Western Liberal Standard is suddenly derogatory.

[BloodBird]

This, pretty much. It's not supposed to be a pretty place.

Being a pretty place or not was never up for argument; Seriphyn's post reflects the CURRENT status quo in the State, and it's still not what this is about. To answer my claim that Tibus Heth and his viewpoint(s) are not the epitome of 'State ideology' you served us some select quotes from a few wiki articles that didn't answer anything. Allow me to add some pieces you missed that reflect the State's mindset;

Statism (French; étatisme) is a term used by political scientists to describe the belief that, for whatever reason, a government should control either economic or social policy or both to some degree. Statism is effectively the opposite of anarchism. Statism can take many forms. Minarchists prefer a minimal or night watchman states to protect people from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud with military, police, and courts. Some may also include fire departments, prisons, and other functions. Totalitarians prefer a maximum or all encompassing state. Limited government, welfare state, and other options make up the middle territory of the scale of statism. Some anarchists use the term statist in a derogatory sense.

State, society and individuals

Some statist analyses use a dichotomy between state and society, viewing the state as a homogeneous institution capable of using political power to force policy on a passive or resisting society. Such an analysis depends on an elitist theory of power rather than a pluralist theory of power; that power is exercised by individuals and competing organisations within society.

Right-wing authoritarianism, on the other hand, views a strong, authoritative state as required to legislate or enforce traditional morality and cultural practices. The ideology of statism espoused by fascism holds that sovereignty is not vested in the people but in the nation state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, prestige and well-being of the state. It repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline. Fascism and some forms of corporatism extol the moral position that the corporate group, usually the state, is greater than the sum of its parts and that individuals have a moral obligation to serve the state.

Here is a bit from the original description for the Caldari State;

A state built on corporate capitalism, the Caldari State is run by a few mega-corporations which divide the state between them, controlling and ruling every aspect of society. Each corporation is made up of thousands of smaller companies, ranging from industrial companies to law firms. All land and real estate is owned by a company which leases it to the citizens, and government and policing are also handled by independent companies.

Although this gives the corporations dictatorial powers, they are just as bound by Caldari customs and laws as the individual, and the fierce, continual competition between the corporations ensures a healthy, consumer-based social environment, which benefits everyone.

...

The State offers its citizens the best and the worst in living conditions. As long as you keep in line, do your job, uphold the laws and so forth, life can be fairly pleasant and productive. But for those who are not cut out for this strict, disciplined regime life quickly becomes intolerable. They lose their respect, family, status, everything, and the only options left to them are suicide or exile. Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules.

Megacorporations

The Caldari State stands for corporate capitalism in its purest form. There are eight great Corporations that together own more than 90% of all property within the State. Each of the corporation is made up of thousands of companies of various sizes and various sorts, ranging from simple mining companies to powerful police companies. There is no single, unified government as such, each corporation rules its territories like their own kingdom with little or nor interference from the other corporations. Competition, efficiency and market share is more important to the corporations than accumulation of wealth (although the latter is often a happy by-product of the former). Business for the good of the individual rather than the good of the many is something totally alien to the Caldari. In higher matters, such as in foreign policy towards the other empires, the Board of Directors, which consists of the CEOs of the eight major corporations, has the highest authority. The Board of Directors also makes sure that the social infrastructure of the State remains intact and settles all major quarrels between the corporations.

This is the epitome of the State's ideology; a covenant of grand corporations with shared historical, ethnic, cultural and religious beliefs all striving together for a common goal. There is often fierce competition, ensuring a healthy economy and growth that would benefit everyone able to help achieve it; but the State is very much a unified beast when it is in their interest to be so. NO ONE PERSON would be in charge to dictate direction for all of them, and while the ideology of the state held several fascist ideals the typical 'great leader' ideology was not followed, instead they trusted the BoD to handle all manners of high-end inner-state politics and high-grade, state-wide foreign affairs.

But then what happened? well... The final piece of a definitive fascist government was added and things started to go down-hill from there. It's not so 'recent' now but let's have a look at a piece from 'recent events' concerning the State;

Leadership

Where the rest of the State is uncharacteristically united and calm, the upper levels of the megacorps are still divided and disoriented. Heth's combination of popular support and seemingly limitless financial backing has made him almost unassailable, but his victories have come at the expense of many of the most powerful individuals and cartels in the State. His reforms have fragmented the field of play, sending everyone else scrambling to secure political territory. While there are a few executives who wholeheartedly support Heth and his ideals, the majority see him as a threat and a menace to be controlled or removed as soon as the opportunity presents itself. While ideological positions still place many of the big players at odds with one another, shady alliances that would have been inconceivable a year ago are coming into being.

Players at this level, while they may be ideologically motivated, do not survive without the ability to be extremely pragmatic and realistic when required; they know they can't make a move right now, but they know they need to be absolutely ready when an opportunity presents itself. If military conflict provides that opportunity, they're all for it, but right now all it seems to be achieving is to strengthen Tibus Heth's position.

Why is this man not whole-heartedly supported and backed by the entire State? May have something to do with his very Un-Caldari way of acting and I've no doubt the severe cut in power the BoD has suffered plays into it as well. The very idea that a single man should be acting glorious leader of the whole of the State is an idea alien to the Caldari mindset, at least if one take all the pre-Empyrian age info into account. Heth is very good at playing the masses however, utilizing old misgivings or creating new ones (Hello Noir Broker, let's have ourselves an excuse, prize-tagged 600k lives, for now.) to keep people rooting for him. Works so long as they are angry and blood-thirsty, led by his personal cohorts. This group that Heth uses to control the state, who are they again? Well;

The Caldari Providence Directorate is a gendarmerie founded by Tibus Heth shortly after the launch of his successful coup against the Caldari Constructions Corporation.

It was initially manned by Constructions workers loyal to Heth. Templis Dragonaurs were secretly appointed as the agency's officers and were responsible for providing State-wide internal security and running Heth's anti-Gallente/Caldari supremacy propaganda campaign.

Noted for their physical perfection and trademark dark blue uniforms, these men and women were nicknamed Provists by the Caldari population.

The Templis Dragonaurs are an ultra-nationalist Caldari terrorist organization whose origins date back to the Tikiona States. They are easily the most anti-Gallente political entity in New Eden.

The organization was secretly involved in the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor. Tibus Heth was supposedly a member for six years, although his involvement was never officially proven.

So, let's get this right; The entire purpose of the Caldari State is now to act as a vessel for one man and his terrorist friends to maintain a racism-fueled hate-war with a foreign power for their own interests, all the while claiming that this is good for the State in the long run? This basically means that the State was made to destroy the Federation; they have *NO* other purpose. And Ishukone, desiring something so Treasonous as 'trade and peace' with the Federation is thus enemies who must be punished. Funny how that works;

[Ishukone article, on politics]Politics

The megacorporation is the leader of the liberal bloc in Caldari politics, a position it has held since Otro Gariushi seized control of the company during a period of complacency and decline in YC 100. Under his leadership, the company advocated free market policies, relaxed trade barriers, and an easing of tensions between the State and the Gallente Federation. Gariushi also gave the company its reputation for being relatively employee friendly and for its ruthless competitive practices with rival companies. Despite the death of Gariushi in the Malkalen disaster, his policies still cast a long shadow over the corporation and the current leadership appears to be following in his footsteps.

As a result, Ishukone remains a reluctant partner in the Caldari Providence Directorate. With little choice but to go along with the Directorate after Gariushi's death, the corporate leadership remains of two minds about the situation. On the one hand, many board members support the meritocratic reforms instituted by the Directorate, which were similar to policies already in place under Gariushi. However, considerable resistance to the centralization of power and the Directorate's belligerence remains among the corporate leadership.

This coming from the worst offender to the State's founding principles and way of life that EVE PF has ever created. Hell, his reforms were not even that original as it appears many had been in place under Ishukone corporation for some time. By your arguments, the entire ideological and historical worth of the entire State boils down to "Herp, kill all Gallente, Derp." and that the State has no more nuance, debt, or value than that? Again; bullshit. The State has a greater value as an in-game faction with considerably more value and debt than to be card-board villains for the Federation to fight in an eternal, non-winnable (According to game-mechanics) war.

Lastly...

I grow tired of arguing this so this will be the LAST time;

Who is, and who is not, traitors to the State depends widely on different points of view. These can be argued for some time if we want. It is established from PF that Heth is a very 'un-Caldari' influence on the State and that much of the flak that Ishukone get's is due their personal ideals as a liberal corp and the legacy put down by Gariushi, something Heth seems to hate because it refuses to paint the Federation as the unalterable hated arch-enemy. As such, from the provist's viewpoint they may be traitors, but by the view point of Ishukone Heth has subverted and betrayed the State for some time; if armed conflict takes place between the two it's not clear-cut from PF who is and who is not the traitors - only who is the 'rebel' against the 'wayward' nation.

Also, as far as I'm personally concerned if Ishukone is the only 'State' faction available in Dust 514 I do wonder why they are portrayed so Federation friendly; why would they fight the Federation if things are this smooth? I'm personally confused, but then that's the reason I try to not get to involved in this absurd cluster-fuck that this new book adds to the already existing chaotic mess.

Bittervet/ I would like to get back the EVE online where factions were believable, nuanced and down-to-earth legitimate human societies not catalysts for 'epic' storylines and clear-cut boxed caricatures of themselves in clear-cut black.vs.white conflicts sparked by god-like entities. /Bittervet.

[Desiderya]

edit:

I simply disagree, Seriphyn. If you're really moaning about why people feel attacked when faced with these sensible statements you roll out everytime then I can't help it. I'm not going to engage in circular arguments and the derailing of the thread. I quoted the PF I felt was appropriate to the discussion.


@Bloodbird
I tend to agree with most of your points. However, I want to add that Patriots != Hethists/Provists, as well. They're probably more disagreeing with the, quoted, un-caldarian influence of Heth than the others, even if many of his deeds align with patriotic ideals.

edit:
And I agree with your bittervet-bottom line. I'm getting sick and tired of the focus on Heth and the extremely stupid and flat RP surrounding it. There seem to be no positions besides "Anti-State Caldari" ( which includes Ishukone and now Hyasoda, which is simply idiotic ) or brainwashed fascist. Whenever you're argueing a point you're getting wedged somewhere in there.

[John Revenent]

Who is, and who is not, traitors to the State depends widely on different points of view. These can be argued for some time if we want. It is established from PF that Heth is a very 'un-Caldari' influence on the State and that much of the flak that Ishukone get's is due their personal ideals as a liberal corp and the legacy put down by Gariushi, something Heth seems to hate because it refuses to paint the Federation as the unalterable hated arch-enemy. As such, from the provist's viewpoint they may be traitors, but by the view point of Ishukone Heth has subverted and betrayed the State for some time; if armed conflict takes place between the two it's not clear-cut from PF who is and who is not the traitors - only who is the 'rebel' against the 'wayward' nation.

Well said.

[Senn Typhos]

This, pretty much. It's not supposed to be a pretty place.

Being a pretty place or not was never up for argument; Seriphyn's post reflects the CURRENT status quo in the State, and it's still not what this is about. To answer my claim that Tibus Heth and his viewpoint(s) are not the epitome of 'State ideology' you served us some select quotes from a few wiki articles that didn't answer anything.

That you didn't understand their relevance doesn't mean they "didn't answer anything." They were pertinent, concise passages that supported my earlier argument, showing the tendency of extreme corporate dictatorships with Statist mentalities to resemble patriotic fascist states. I even followed it up with a CCP-made quote that supports my supported argument.

What's so hard to understand? I didn't say it was morally defensible, I didn't say I (the person, not the character) agreed, I didn't say your character had to believe something different.

I said Ishukone is a traitor Mega. And it is. It violates the tenants of patriotic duty that Statism thrives on, especially under leaders like Heth. Whether or not we like it, Tony G's book is PF, and that PF says Ishukone fought alongside the Federation to take immortal soldier tech for themselves.

[Myyona]

Yes. Sadly that is PF...
And unless we argue that the Caldari people in majority does not represent the State then I fear they (the commoners) will see the actions is Ishukone as traitoruos. Philosophic details disregarded.

[Myyona]

Ha, I just realized that the good Tony is infringing on god-modding player characters by stating that Ishukone has been expelled from the Science and Trade Institute. It is one thing write about what some NPC did in a NPC corporation to trying to dictate what is happening in a corporation with a large amount of player characters. Especially as there is no game mechanic that expels you from STI if you show great support to Ishukone or claim to be an Ishukone citizen.

Or maybe Tony G is the only one allowed to say "you're doing it wrong".

[Desiderya]

Short version: It's stupid to change the story of a game through a novel without changing the game, too.

[hellgremlin]

I am in agreement with Senn. Heth cannot be in the position he is without some major support among the Caldari no matter how hard we wish it was not true. Both among the mega corp CEOs and the common population.

To be against his administration and co-operating with Gallente is treason against the State. I do not think the Caldari are more refined than that. Heck, co-operating with the Gallente is enough to qualify.

Putting a person in a position requires the support of everyone supervising, cooperating or serving. Taking a person out of a position merely requires a man with a gun. This is why I suspect Heth won't be around much longer.

[Desiderya]

I just love that mindset.