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[Silas Vitalia]

How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?

We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!

I think this is called Corp Theft. An infiltrator cancelling industry jobs and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.

Sure, and a good example, but I was thinking more market-wide effects. I can rob any large corp blind but no one will have a problem buying Abaddons in Amarr anytime soon. etc.

[Alain Colcer]

Once upon a time, storefronts where being designed....

Store fronts, in theory, could have solved for many of the important issues i wish we could do today in the market. Realistically there is no way to balance and implement ship "variations" created by players....there is really no way to do it, even CCP admited it on fanfest (can be heard on one of the videos recorded in youtube).

However the possibility to create a "shop" for your corporation and promote your brand is something that the market currently lacks and needs badly.

1) Illegal goods could be sold through this service in low-sec and null-sec only, RP explanation = store fronts are station-based services out of the SCC reach.

2) Store fronts could provide discounts for loyalty (standings), volume (buy 100 instead of 10), and all sort of attributes (faction, bloodline, location, etc) in order to promote people to create true supply chains and subcontracting services.

Store fronts were the next big thing for the market/industry people out there, but was scrapped....

They (CCP) really should revisit the idea.

[orange]

Re: Storefronts

LDIS was primed and ready to utilize storefronts to provide pre-fitted Caldari Frigates & Cruisers to the STPRO in Nourvukakian back when we were able to play around with it on SiSi.   We had different models of each of the ships with different fits depending on the role for which it was designed.

When storefronts fell through, we attempted to implement the concept via contracts.  It did alright, but became cumbersome.

How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?

We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!

I think this is called Corp Theft. An infiltrator cancelling industry jobs and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.

Sure, and a good example, but I was thinking more market-wide effects. I can rob any large corp blind but no one will have a problem buying Abaddons in Amarr anytime soon. etc.

This is why I think our ability to transverse the whole of New Eden in relatively short time (a single sitting for example) and without many obstacles is a part of the problem.

Abaddons sold in Amarr are built in a variety of places with materials from across the whole of New Eden.

Where is the Zydrine & Megacyte coming from?  Mission Loot refinement? Null-sec miners?  What Factories are being used and what do their wait times look like?  Do I have to source minerals from multiple systems to improve my profit or is it more efficient for me to just buy all the minerals when I sell the ships?

The ability to consolidate the bulk of market activity to a few major market hubs is linked to the ease of movement we enjoy and the simplicity it those hubs bring.

If we however lost the ease of movement, more market hubs would develop.  This would make true trading companies important as they move bulk goods across space between hubs.  They would be able to turn a profit based on the scarcity of resources around one hub that are readily available in another.

It would also mean that certain resources could be truly bottle-necked.

Don't like the your competitor/enemy having T2 modules?  Wardec the trading companies that bring Technetium, Platinum Technite, Nanotransitors, or Fullerides to your local market hub or setup high buy-orders to immediately buy-up those resources to deny it to your competitor/enemy.   You may never actually shot at the trading companies, but your goal was to keep them away from your enemy's/competitor's market.

[Silver Night]

The problem is, it's very difficult to take away that ease of movement once players have been given it.

Back in the day™ we had a lot more separation between empires (going from one to the other was more like 30 jumps than 10), and null sec was also a lot more separated (no smugglers gates, and obviously no cap ships), and there weren't any freighters or level 4 missions (which both serve to even the field on minerals and certain other commodities). If any of that was removed, or even changed substantially, now it would probably be a pretty big deal.

[Silas Vitalia]

The problem is, it's very difficult to take away that ease of movement once players have been given it.

Back in the day™ we had a lot more separation between empires (going from one to the other was more like 30 jumps than 10), and null sec was also a lot more separated (no smugglers gates, and obviously no cap ships), and there weren't any freighters or level 4 missions (which both serve to even the field on minerals and certain other commodities). If any of that was removed, or even changed substantially, now it would probably be a pretty big deal.

Aye. Always a balance between 'ease of gameplay' and 'more interesting for the hardcore.'   

But yea it's a recurring issue that makes the market completely irrelevant.

Too easy to travel, too easy to move materials. Impossible to stop flow of goods (alts, etc).

[Alain Colcer]

There are two things here:

a) the ease to move large quantities in a single ship or trip. IE: freighters.
b) the ease of traveling long distances. IE: jump bridges and jump-capable ships.

I'm not against freighters, jump-freighters, carriers, supercaps and titans. Because that requires people to fly the ships, people to escort it from a start point to an end-point, and also give opportunity to do "disrupt" such operations.

I'm only against jump-bridges because they bypass the natural traveling paths making them a nuisance.

However, to be fair, it is not bad for the eve economy that large quantities of goods are available in the market, but i do find it bad for the economy that all of them are placed in the same location (jita). There should be some increased cost to pile more and more goods in the same station at some point (i see it as selling earth's entire market only in new york).

Store fronts in particular provided a work around all that.

Suddenly the important matter was to find a provider that had the things you needed, conveniently located where you needed them. And all of them through the same interafce......neat isn't it?

[Victoria Stecker]

However, to be fair, it is not bad for the eve economy that large quantities of goods are available in the market, but i do find it bad for the economy that all of them are placed in the same location (jita). There should be some increased cost to pile more and more goods in the same station at some point (i see it as selling earth's entire market only in new york).

Store fronts in particular provided a work around all that.

Suddenly the important matter was to find a provider that had the things you needed, conveniently located where you needed them. And all of them through the same interafce......neat isn't it?

we have market skills that push the cost of taxes and brokers down so that we can sell our goods more cheaply.

What if there were a sliding scale to these - the more material moved through a given station, the higher the fees would become as the poor bastards responsible for moving the goods unionized and demanded benefits?

This would either reduce profits or increase prices on those goods in order to make the sale worthwhile, and give you a reason to look at selling stuff in the ass end of nowhere if the orders were hardly going to be taxed at all. Those poor shits are just happy to get some business.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Wouldn't it be much, much more interesting RP wise if groups could wield influence and curry favor or ruin other groups by more complicated and interesting ways aside from pvp and corp theft?

I think this entire discussion undercuts a rather significant point, that in EVE's sandbox -- progression isn't dictated by necessity.

As characters, capsuleers, they can live a comfortable and satisfying existence running missions or even ratting in low security space. What incentive is there to build an empire or make the most money? Why do they have to destroy another corporation?  Why build empires in lawless space? Why do they have to curry favor with agents or corporations? As a player, this answer is simple; I get some kind of enjoyment from the various aspects of the game, but as a character I find it difficult to give my character motivation to do vain, superficial, and contentious behavior when it isn't dictated by necessity.

So beyond vanity, racism, patriotism, or some personal urge for revenge, can someone explain to me the purpose of being the person who makes the most money or mines the most Crokite?

[orange]

as a character I find it difficult to give my character motivation to do vain, superficial, and contentious behavior when it isn't dictated by necessity.

So beyond vanity, racism, patriotism, or some personal urge for revenge, can someone explain to me the purpose of being the person who makes the most money or mines the most Crokite?

Pursuit of challenges?  Betterment of one's self?  Perhaps pursuing something beyond individual goals and pursuing some shared/common goal, like flying a bigger/better ship for everyone (even the lowest of T2 ships requires access to the resources of lawless space)?

[Saikoyu]

You forgot boredom.  More stupid stuff has been done in the name of boredom than anything else.  Well, probably.  Being some all mighty being with riches beyond the dreams of most mortals, and nearly endless lives to live, boredom probably figures into a lot of decisions of capsuleers.

[Silas Vitalia]

However, to be fair, it is not bad for the eve economy that large quantities of goods are available in the market, but i do find it bad for the economy that all of them are placed in the same location (jita). There should be some increased cost to pile more and more goods in the same station at some point (i see it as selling earth's entire market only in new york).

Store fronts in particular provided a work around all that.

Suddenly the important matter was to find a provider that had the things you needed, conveniently located where you needed them. And all of them through the same interafce......neat isn't it?

we have market skills that push the cost of taxes and brokers down so that we can sell our goods more cheaply.

What if there were a sliding scale to these - the more material moved through a given station, the higher the fees would become as the poor bastards responsible for moving the goods unionized and demanded benefits?

This would either reduce profits or increase prices on those goods in order to make the sale worthwhile, and give you a reason to look at selling stuff in the ass end of nowhere if the orders were hardly going to be taxed at all. Those poor shits are just happy to get some business.

Fantastic ideas.  I think taxes could be an immediate solution to a lot of these problems. The more people in local, the higher the station tax on items sold. Easy and done.  If the devs want people out of Jita and spread out more, they just tie the station tax rate to the #s in local or the amount of goods listed at the station.  Immediate new markets open up. If I can get my battleship for 60% of Jita prices in Khanid Prime people will absolutely start moving about more. 

[Silas Vitalia]

Wouldn't it be much, much more interesting RP wise if groups could wield influence and curry favor or ruin other groups by more complicated and interesting ways aside from pvp and corp theft?

I think this entire discussion undercuts a rather significant point, that in EVE's sandbox -- progression isn't dictated by necessity.

As characters, capsuleers, they can live a comfortable and satisfying existence running missions or even ratting in low security space. What incentive is there to build an empire or make the most money? Why do they have to destroy another corporation?  Why build empires in lawless space? Why do they have to curry favor with agents or corporations? As a player, this answer is simple; I get some kind of enjoyment from the various aspects of the game, but as a character I find it difficult to give my character motivation to do vain, superficial, and contentious behavior when it isn't dictated by necessity.

So beyond vanity, racism, patriotism, or some personal urge for revenge, can someone explain to me the purpose of being the person who makes the most money or mines the most Crokite?

Well in the real world the ones with the most money have the most influence over others, so there are real incentives to protect and enlarge ones bank account. In EVE I can be the richest person and I still don't have any direct influence over other immortals.  We get a bunch of bored billionaires playing the game of thrones but with no consequences.

[Saikoyu]

Well, direct influence over other players would probably get on the slope of fun for me, but not for them. 

Direct influence over NPCs on the other hand, would be lots of fun.  What if you could "buy" an incursion from an NPC pirate group?  It would be like a Sansha incursion, except that you funded it and the longer it stays active, the more isk you get back.  Or "buy" a fleet escort from one of the empires to fight for you?  Then you jump into Ama with a Republic battleship group at your back.  Or finish the PI game.  When that first came up, it sounded like it was going to be sim city.  So maybe on high sec planets you can "make donations" to the leaders on the planet, and in return you get PI materials at an increased rate, or maybe they lower the taxes or something.