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[Silas Vitalia]

I wanted to add that I do think all flavor of characters are completely valid and worth pursuing. i think the miners and space-truckers and scientists and builders are just as interesting as the shooty-types. I think this thread in particular though is about wannabe shooters not backing it up.

[BloodBird]

You don't hear miners bragging to each other who has mined or not mined the most ore. There may be some arguments over who is more skilled or whatever, but I've yet to see a miner post in his/her bio what a bad-ass quota-fullfilling little drone they are. That one is usualyl reserved for the warriors arguing who's dicks are bigger.

[Jade Constantine]

You don't hear miners bragging to each other who has mined or not mined the most ore. There may be some arguments over who is more skilled or whatever, but I've yet to see a miner post in his/her bio what a bad-ass quota-fullfilling little drone they are. That one is usualyl reserved for the warriors arguing who's dicks are bigger.

Lies!

We've had discussions in alliance chat about which comrade has the most efficient mining yield!
(also which free captain is best at sec recovery, mission farming, trading, etc etc)

Newflash , gamers can get competitive about anything

If I ran a mining corp I'd definitely make propaganda posts about how incredible we were at sucking crok.

Actually thinking about it our corporate point of pride in 2003-2004 was how impressive we were at trade-runs and moving plutonium from venal to khanid in cargo expanded lif burner bestowers you know ... pretty sure we did a fair bit of boasting on that score.

[Jade Constantine]

To me, his whole thread seems to be about not liking people who get attention for things that you do not get attention for, or others getting 'undeserved' attention.

Well its always been the way of Eve that you don't get acknowledged for anything unless you have a good publicist.

[hellgremlin]

Or in my case, are your own publicist.

[Esna Pitoojee]

So, to clarify, my previous post was entirely about people who are talking about non-game-mechanic claims, i.e., claims that cannot be verified or reproduced within the mechanics of EVE.

If you claim to be an ace pilot or a master tactician or something, well then yes, please be prepared to back it the hell up with some pew.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Moved several posts to the catacombs. I'll be adding notes to them there, and the authors can feel free to repost within guidelines (sans the bits that are out of the guidelines, naturally). In general, please keep in mind that on Backstage, it isn't kosher to make broad assumptions about other people's motivations (particularly negative assumptions) and flame bait and off-topic posts are to be avoided (for example, using as your examples how such and such old enemy screwed up, compared to your much better way) as that is very nearly the definition of flamebait and will tend to derail things - particularly when you know that those same old enemies also frequent the board.I do apologize for the time it took to clean the thread, but things have been busy lately.[/mod]

[Jade Constantine]

NB: sliced out most specific mentions of Kimotoro Directive strategy and critique of NBSI engagement philosophy

It’s a difficult kind of topic to address really without slipping into inadvertent evocation of the monocultural all holy church of the killboard. I mean, its ironic really that I’m seen as one of the patron saints of “back it up in space” and that leads to talk of all badassary that doesn’t involve killboard stats being pretty bogus. To a point its true of course. You get a big talking IGS pirate tough guy going on about how he’s wanted in two dozen systems etc and the genuine hard asses will rightly roll their eyes and shrug maybe. But there is a danger in adopting a single measure (pvp killboard totals) to this stuff because like everything in eve killboard stats are (small e) exploitable.

I’m sure you and I have both come across big-alliance pilots whose exposure to the noble arts of space combat consists of clicking F1-F8 when the fc tells him too and has 10010101010 touch participations on enemy ships in fleet ops. Bravo tbh, but should we be frightened of or respectful of that guy when he arrives in lowsec on his own or posts up on IGS everyone should bow down and worship him because the stats show he’s 1000x more effective in combat than anyone else in the thread?

I don’t think so obviously, but then I am an individualist anarchist so don’t take my word as gospel.

I do also take the point people raise that shooting thousands of npcs does make them pretty bad-ass in RP terms from their own perspective. Maybe the way to look at it is the difference between regular soldiers (fighting nationalist wars) and mercs and assassins (working for pay) or criminals (working for bank). I guess mercenaries and professional assassins in the real world probably look down on the skill set of squaddies in some way since they would invest the best in their kit and practise their murdering skills to extreme. Perhaps that’s a way to look at it in Eve?  Maybe.

My perspective of the Mito campaign is that we took on a self-described Nationalist powerhouse to show them that Caldari state authority didn’t mean anything in the capsuleer world and that the planetside imperialists had better stay there.

But hey, on general bad-assery. I’ve never really tried to trade on Jade’s combat stats. Partly for the reason its apples and oranges trying to compare an NRDS pilot with strict rules of engagement with NBSI pilots who shoot anything. As Jade I’ve shot “enough” valid targets so nobody is going to get anywhere with the suggestion she doesn’t know spaceship combat – and most know enough to be wary about getting into fights with her (pirates in particular hate the fact that Jade prowling means there are cyno’s traps, bait, and sudden death in the ether more often than not – even when it is *just a drake*)

But if we got into a cock-measuring contest on who has killed the most capsuleer ships on the IGS most tin-pot NBSI pirates will be more impressive on raw numbers because killing for them is industrial process often without much more passion than the lev4 mission-runners grinding 1000x gurrista battleships a day.

So what I consider bad-assery from Jade’s perspective is ideological integrity and sticking to one’s beliefs and honouring the cause. It’s about having principles and things one cares enough to fight for. Not surrendering principles because they are difficult – not sliding to a nauseatingly common morass of humdrum banal status quo. Daring to be different and stand up for a principle you will commit your passion to.

Other people see it differently, there are those that look at the fact that 99.9% of the nullsec server is NBSI nihilist / napfest is a slap in the face for anyone believing in NRDS principles and by definition we’ve “lost the game” because nobody has been persuaded. I guess there is a special virtue in conformity that brings esteem in those quarters *shrugs*.

Whereas I tend to see the 0.1% who do have the courage to be different are the heroes of Eve, the genuine “bad-asses” who don’t need the backup of 1000s of player mooks in Nullsec alliances and are prepared to stand tall on their ideals and principles and don’t turn their coats the moment things get difficult.

Whats the difference between Hero’s and Bad-asses?

You kinda care what happens to a hero’s narrative whereas mass produced bad-asses are common as tin-pot tyrants and unflattering haircuts.

Still, there is a grain of a point here with the op post. People should try to do in space what they claim they stand for in their bio’s and IGS posts. But on the other hand, people should be more respectful of the attempt to do something than they currently are.

Trying and failing is usually far more impressive than lowering your sights and following the herd to ensure you’ll never fail at anything.

Perhaps ask yourself next time you mock somebody on the IGS (or other forum) for a failfit or embarrassing fiasco or failed event or hilarious reversal. What is the motive for the desparagement you cast? Are you really comfortable with attacking the motivation to try these things? Do you want an Eve where everyone is too frightened by potential humiliation and mockery to try something new?

Or should we applaud those who dare to take risks and end up flat on their faces most of the time because one day those are the guys we'll be telling stories about when Eve online has othewise passed into legend and memory.

[Myrhial Arkenath]

Late to the party, as usual, but I felt like speaking up because my Evelopedia profile does have a section on "crimes". When I wrote it, I pulled up a list of crimes, and went and matches those on RP at that time. Most of them are in-space happenings, or from station-side storylines. I'm not a criminal or law expert -- where's Aria when he could lend his expertise -- though, so I might have misjudged some.

As for why CONCORD knows about it? There was no effort done to hide it, as it happened in a lowsec station. I approached it the same as sec status, they know but they can't / won't come to help, it's merely recorded. I imagine that my character goes through several fake identities and what not to get around stationside, where as in space I assume that game mechanics apply. If we ever get solid backstory info on this, I'm happy to retcon on it.

[Ava Starfire]

Loving how when PvPers are proud of their skill, non-PvPers say stuff like "seeing who's dick is bigger".

Seriously.

Neither Ava, nor I, have a dick.

Anyway, killboards are a terrible way to gauge "skill" much of the time. You can determine 1) does this person solo a lot and 2) perhaps, what are they likely to be flying? A good k/d ratio solo is sometimes an indicator of skill, but, as stated above... see Lukka.

Ava is a combat pilot, and I rp her as such, fighting for the TLF. Never gave it much thought... am I doin it rite?

Ava

[BloodBird]

Lies!

We've had discussions in alliance chat about which comrade has the most efficient mining yield!

Good for you. You have seen more than I have in that regard.

@ Ava, I'd like you to clarify if you feel offended by terms used in this forum or if your apparent irritation stems form players in general.

[tarunik]

Loving how when PvPers are proud of their skill, non-PvPers say stuff like "seeing who's dick is bigger".

Seriously.

Neither Ava, nor I, have a dick.

Anyway, killboards are a terrible way to gauge "skill" much of the time. You can determine 1) does this person solo a lot and 2) perhaps, what are they likely to be flying? A good k/d ratio solo is sometimes an indicator of skill, but, as stated above... see Lukka.

Ava is a combat pilot, and I rp her as such, fighting for the TLF. Never gave it much thought... am I doin it rite?

Ava

Agreed WRT uses of killboards (Tarunik has been known to check past combat records of his foes, with variable results).

From the perspective of pride...it's your war stories that count.  Tarunik, for instance, is very proud of the time he and a corpmate (him in a 'Cane, his m8 in a Drake) were able to burn down 1 Loki and drive off another after they combat-probed Tarunik down and tried to jump him in a Grav site.

[Merdaneth]

Being bad-ass is relative. I clearly remember that in PIE getting 50 kills was huge, and 200 kills was the pinnacle (the highest combat reward stood at 200).

Expressing bad-assedness is another thing entirely.

And despite its lack of accuracy and warped representation of the reality, killboards are used as a measuring stick of PVP-ability in EVE, and PvP ability is the primary OOC measure of bad-assedness that people respect in EVE. That's just the way it is.

I had once player that I've had killed convo me being proud of himself because he held out so long against a top-2000 player. I was ?, but that's how many see it I've experienced.

I noticed that flying a single signature vessel a lot (and well) helps in establishing PvP reputation.

[Andreus Ixiris]

Actually, from a roleplay standpoint, mission-runners should actually be far more feared and respected than capsuleers who habitually kill their own, because when you kill a capsuleer, it is more or less implicit that all you've done is inconvenienced them - they'll be back. Capsuleers assemble ships and modules in a matter of hours and can obtain all the wealth to replace lost assets in a few minutes, and their expertise and experience is not lost when they die - merely transferred to a new body. When you kill a pirate ship, that's a large investment of time, money and personnel on the part of the organisation in question that's permanently gone. It's actually somewhat rare that a war will permanently destroy a capsuleer organisation, but every time you finish a level IV mission, that's an operation that probably took months of planning and billions of ISK right down the drain.

Besides, since there are more NPC ships than capsuleer vessels, the total human kill count of a mission runner is probably astronomical, whereas since capsuleer ships require a significantly reduced crew, capsuleers who kill other capsuleers probably have a much lower bodycount to their name. If, like me, you serve a faction, you're also most likely performing a much more useful service by completing a mission than by destroying capsuleers.

Yes, I know that's not how it works in out-of-character respect allocation, but remember that in-character, it doesn't work the same way.

[Bacchanalian]

Andreus, the flaw in your argument is the same as "killboards don't make you good."  Quality>quantity.  IC or OOC, anyone who has fought a player and run a mission knows the former requires more skill unless you're flying against a bad pilot.  Ergo, while you may be destroying more, you aren't scarier.  By that logic, suicide gankers who nab 20b isk marauders are scary because of the sheer amount of stuff they blew up.