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[Julianus Soter]

Liberate the Miners

Ah, straight to the point. Good. Wait ... you’re Julianus Soter, aren’t you? Perfect. At the moment, I have a matter here that requires someone of your ability.

An associate of mine owns a mining concern in Miroitem, and a few months ago he contracted a small, private mining sompany to do the work there. However, we have just discovered that the company he hired is secretly run by the Amarrians. Unbelievable, I know, but those Scripture-spouting lunatics are cunning.

Well, things there in the past 24 hours have very quickly gone downhill. Knowing the jig is up, the Amarrians behind the whole thing sent in a big task force of ships and supplies, and they’ve set up a bunch of powerful sentry towers, turning the place into a labor camp so they can strip the place and flee before the military can be called in to deal with them. No doubt taking all the laborers with them, at z-stick-point, to be made into slaves when they return. Cunning bastards.

 Since the navy likely won’t be able to rally a response soon enough, we desperately need someone like you, who knows starship combat. We need you to go in there and destroy the Amarrian forces so we can send in some personnel transports to get those workers out!    

    
Slavery and the Amarr Mindset
Religion is of great importance to every Amarrian ― at least in public, if not in private. This fervor has at various times been the cause of both great good and great evil, as has religion in every age of humankind.

Shortly after recovering from the closure of EVE, millennia ago, the Amarrians began to expand their realm and colonize other planets and, eventually, constellations. The worlds they conquered were enslaved, a practice justified by the Amarr Scriptures. Ever since, the Amarrians have attempted to enslave every nation and race they have encountered, and slavery remains an essential part of Amarr society. This practice has, of course, tainted their relations with other races.

 

So, yes, Amarrians enslave people outside their borders and bring them back to the Empire.

[lallara zhuul]

For some reason my reading comprehension as a non-native seems to be a tad dodgy.

To me, nothing in that snippet says that Amarrians are practicing slavery outside Amarrian borders.

[Julianus Soter]

Knowing the jig is up, the Amarrians behind the whole thing sent in a big task force of ships and supplies, and they’ve set up a bunch of powerful sentry towers, turning the place into a labor camp so they can strip the place and flee before the military can be called in to deal with them. No doubt taking all the laborers with them, at z-stick-point, to be made into slaves when they return. Cunning bastards.

[Arkady Sadik]

There are a few mission reports to that end. E.g. "In the Midst of Deadspace" (L4 mission series from Minmatar agents) has you liberate an Amarrian slave compound in Republic space, including an Imperial Officer speaking:

Not you again. We just finished repairing the damage you did to the slave compound. You won't get away with this a second time!

In a later stage, you find the slave compound (guarded by Caldari), and your agent tells you via popup:

This is your agent again. So this is what they were up to! No wonder they needed all those slaves. A joint venture between the Caldari and Imperial Navies to construct a massive manufacturing plant right in our backyard. This explains everything, the increased activity of their forces inside our sovereign space, the enslavement of some of our civilians ... this must be put to an end immediately [...]

Last time I raised that with an Amarrian, I was told roughly that missions are so weird that they don't count for PF.

[Julianus Soter]

Last time I raised that with an Amarrian, I was told roughly that missions are so weird that they don't count for PF.

I wish I had that kind of get-out-of-PF-for-free card for the Gallente.

[Chell Charon]

Prejudice.

Basicly nothing of that mission RP brief mentioning slaves and taking thereof is anything but conjecture.

Facts are: 1. Hired a corporation 2. Corporation is run by Amarrians. (Part about finding out, just now, is not a fact.) 3. Corporation has brought in heavy defence.

Amarrians take slaves from outside the Amarr Empire. -The most common form of objection fielded by Amarr loyalist is not that it does not happen. Merely that those doing so are not currently doing it with the blessing of the Empirial authority

Minor things but since this is OOC I'll point out that automatically assuming that the mission agents are giving an unbiased, or even truthful description of the mission is a bit off.

Also I do agree OOC that the 'not currently approved slave taking' seems bit thin excuse. But if it works IC, well.

[Chell Charon]

Last time I raised that with an Amarrian, I was told roughly that missions are so weird that they don't count for PF.

I wish I had that kind of get-out-of-PF-for-free card for the Gallente.

If you feel like pulling that one, I would like to remind that for instance Crow is aware of several cases where Minmatar fleet ships have directly assisted Minmatar freedom fighters.

Taking such missions as pure IC seems to suggest that there is a war on. And any pretense of peace or honoring signed treaties is barely a pretense. In short, either all sides can pull the 'rogue' card or none can.

 Personally

[Graelyn]

"My agent's assumptions on the purpose of these things I'm gonna blow up are supertruth!" 

[Julianus Soter]

Prejudice.

Basicly nothing of that mission RP brief mentioning slaves and taking thereof is anything but conjecture.

Facts are: 1. Hired a corporation 2. Corporation is run by Amarrians. (Part about finding out, just now, is not a fact.) 3. Corporation has brought in heavy defence.

Amarrians take slaves from outside the Amarr Empire. -The most common form of objection fielded by Amarr loyalist is not that it does not happen. Merely that those doing so are not currently doing it with the blessing of the Empirial authority

Minor things but since this is OOC I'll point out that automatically assuming that the mission agents are giving an unbiased, or even truthful description of the mission is a bit off.

Also I do agree OOC that the 'not currently approved slave taking' seems bit thin excuse. But if it works IC, well.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

Amarrians with any significant in-space assets are feudal lords. Holders. The Empress herself designates rights and powers to the Holders. Companies within the Amarr Empire are holder-invested in and holder-controlled.

Having an Amarrian corporation fly into Federation space, set up a work camp with Gallente and other local citizens as their work force, as the mission information states, presumably subjecting them to work conditions not quite on par with what the Federation expects, since they're keeping those citizens there with vast military force.

If you put up a chainlink fence with barbed wire, can you claim anything other than involuntary servitude?

Logically, the result of this analysis reinforces my initial claim; that the Amarrians are enslaving foreign nationals within foreign sovereign space, and then taking them back with them to the Empire. Why the Amarrians would let them go at this point, to be living, breathing witnesses to what happened, is beyond my comprehension.

So, before flinging around words like 'prejudice' in an OOC debate, please remember we're all players of the same game here. I'm merely attempting to elucidate an often-contended point on inter-empire relations.

If we are going to claim that missions have no semblance of PF truth, then at least don't be shy about it. We're merely throwing away the life's work of dozens of CCP employees on the whim that the content they created doesn't match our pre-determined notions of how our factions operate.

Personally, I feel we owe a bit more to the fine folks at CCP to at least think about these kinds of questions, instead of    and 

[Graelyn]

Amarrians with any significant in-space assets are feudal lords. Holders. The Empress herself designates rights and powers to the Holders. Companies within the Amarr Empire are holder-invested in and holder-controlled.

No. The Empire is not a communist state. Private individuals own massive companies, and are only restricted from owning fleets inside the Empire. The mostly Ni-Kunni-dominated merchant caste is rising in power for this reason.

Having an Amarrian corporation fly into Federation space, set up a work camp with Gallente and other local citizens as their work force, as the mission information states, presumably subjecting them to work conditions not quite on par with what the Federation expects, since they're keeping those citizens there with vast military force.

No. Things like capsuleers like to stop by and blow everything up. Much like you do in this mission. Given that this is a fairly common occurence for many space-based operation nowadays, what are you expecting instead?

If you put up a chainlink fence with barbed wire, can you claim anything other than involuntary servitude?

Yes! No one said the employees were trapped! The agent is simply sure it's for some evil Amarrian purpose, those rascals.

Logically, the result of this analysis reinforces my initial claim; that the Amarrians are enslaving foreign nationals within foreign sovereign space, and then taking them back with them to the Empire. Why the Amarrians would let them go at this point, to be living, breathing witnesses to what happened, is beyond my comprehension. 

Since all availible evidence suggests sensible conditions for a well-protected deep-space venture, the rest of the process for reaching this conclusion seem based on blind trust to the motives of the employer. How delightful for him/her!

So, before flinging around words like 'prejudice' in an OOC debate, please remember we're all players of the same game here. I'm merely attempting to elucidate an often-contended point on inter-empire relations.

Stop that. He's saying the agent is prejudiced. I don't know of any that aren't, from any side. No one is being called any names. Stop pointing fingers.

Am I saying Amarrians don't enslave others when given the chance? No. We love that shit.

I'm saying that THIS case is illustrating something else entirely; the assumptions made by others toward Amarrian intentions, no matter what those intentions really are. This is where the Empire's reputation (at least among the Feds) currently is, this many conclusions are readily jumped to without any further investigation, and off you go to blow it all up.

I think the point this mission is trying to make is subtle.

It's all about assumptions.

[Chell Charon]

First that 'Prejudice' is about the mission brief/ agent giving it. It is quite frankly racist. (as are some other missionbriefs from other agents)

Your logical argument on that it would be prudent to take the workforce back to Amarr space as slaves is laying on the foundation of: 'Presumably' even the part about work camp relies on that.

If I remember correctly level five missions (these days) are 100% in lowsec? If so then setting up barbed wire and guard towers with gatling guns could be justified as 'defending' that workforce and assets of the corporation. You know, from pirates (and random insane demi-gods).

As for the larger description of Amarr Empire as a Feudal society, I agree. It is a feudal society. However I do disagree with your description of any Amarrian with space assets as being a holder.

Others holding significant assets in Amarrian feudal system are likely to be two classes: 1. Clergy. 2.Merchants. That operation can be run by any powerful member of three Amarrian classes.

Merchant class is likely under less restrictions when operating outside Amarrian borders. Sub-contracting 'guards' in Gallante space is unlikely to cause any Holder to take offence to the foreign troops in his space.

As far as ignoring the missions, etc. Quite frankly I'm fine with including such within IC discussion however in my opinion taking all mission breefings  as 100% fact is an untenable suggestion.

Further are we also taking in space ships as fact?

[Esna Pitoojee]

Further are we also taking in space ships as fact?

This is a bloody massive arguement that appears from time to time. You're not going to get an easy answer; the community is (from what I've seen) pretty heavily split on this one.


Re - missions... *sigh* I'm pretty hesitent to declare them as 'proof' myself, given that they not only widely contradict PF (some of my agents are still asking me to gather materials 'for the posssibility of conflict with the Republic', for instance), but because taking them at face value results in some pretty wierd logical moments as well - for instance, hostile ships regularly penetrating deep into enemy territory, pirate factions loosing thousands (if not tens of thousands) of battleships a day, or my fighting the same named NPC several times a day with no change in their demeanor, reaction, or method of engaging me.

[Alain Colcer]

Shortly after recovering from the closure of EVE, millennia ago, the Amarrians began to expand their realm and colonize other planets and, eventually, constellations.

I would like to personally burn at the stake the writer who added this last bit on the mission info.....

when will they learn that the whole thing about the EvE gate needs to stay myth with an "ongoing archeological research".

[Lyn Farel]

What Graelyn, Crow and Esna said above for me. This mission brief only proves there is a contentious point here, but guilt is definitly not proven.

Anyway, I was about to say, nothing new ? We all know that rogue amarrians tend to hide behind companies in other empires to do dirty business (even sometimes with amarr navy ships NPC), the same way we know that every empire likes to fuck up with other empires in the exact same fashion, depending for who you take your missions.

Then yes, the validity of pve missions... I have always been somewhat ok with them until I came to work for SOE. SOE is pretty epic. They give you gallente oriented missions, and when its against empire factions, its against Amarr or Caldari. And I get these missions when I run missions in Caldari Space. Against Caldari Navy. Yay ?

[kalaratiri]

is relevant

As for missions =/= PF, I tend to just ignore them entirely.