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[Gottii]

Because of the concept of NPC capsuleers, players are thus free to be considered the "minority": the 20% or fewer of capsuleers who choose to follow their own paths, rather than what their government leaders might wish.

We could, but Im not sure its necessary.

The VAST majority of players in EVE are mission runners.  And what does a mission runner do?  Take ISK from the various governments to do their dirty work.  I think most PC capsuleers are doing exactly what the various governments more or less want them to do.

[Bataav]

I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.

I disagree strongly with this theory.

Wanting to separate from the Federation does not automatically mean wanting to join the State. It is possible to want to secede without being pro-Heth and having serious concerns bordering on civil unrest regarding State invasion.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here it sounds like it's the classic mistaken arguement of secessionists secretly supporting the State which was the usual accusation of pro-Feds when I first started RPing with the ILF.

[Shae Tiann]

According to PF, the Syndicate is where the extremists, pro-independence separatists, and criminal elements of the Intaki people end up; the vast majority of that ethnicity are resident within the Federation still and toe the line regarding drugs, contraband and other issues.

Lumping the whole of the Intaki into the Syndicate is like saying that everyone who lives in Texas owns a gun and wants to secede from the US: it's a gross generalisation based on the reputation of a few minor elements.

Can you show the piece of PF where the Syndicate is connected to the separatism of Placid? I don't see how their business would get any advantage out of further territorial claims, I would rather think that they are happy to covertly exert influence on Federation's affairs from their own area.

I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.

It's in the chronicle about Silphy en Diabel.

The relevant passage, emphasis mine:

The social uproar following the Caldari departure from the Federation touched the Intakis deeply and many of them sympathized and even supported the Caldari - the yoke of the cumbersome Federation bureaucracy lay as heavily on the Intakis as the Caldari. Understandably the Gallenteans were forced to deal harshly with these elements to prevent a complete fragmentation of the young Federation.

Apart from a few minor uprisings the Federation quickly subdued the Intakis. Those deemed the biggest threat to the stability of the regime were arrested and exiled. Some of these went over to the Caldari side, but the majority of the exiles, some five thousand in total, went out into the great unknown at the outskirts of Federation space. There they built themselves new homes in the form of sprawling space stations - the Federation barring them from colonizing any planets or moons.

In time as the exiles became more organized and their power increased through asteroid mining and black market trading they formed a loosely connected organization and termed it the Intaki syndicate. ...

[orange]

I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.

I disagree strongly with this theory.

Wanting to separate from the Federation does not automatically mean wanting to join the State. It is possible to want to secede without being pro-Heth and having serious concerns bordering on civil unrest regarding State invasion.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here it sounds like it's the classic mistaken arguement of secessionists secretly supporting the State which was the usual accusation of pro-Feds when I first started RPing with the ILF.

I think part to the disconnect stems from the fact that the State (in general, Provist, Patriot, Practical, and Liberal) and its supporters support a more independent Intaki and the ILF.  In general, the 3 Ps are going to support a weakening of the Federation for various reasons.  The Liberals are a little less interested in a weakened Federation, but could see business opportunities in an independent Intaki.

We tend to think support is mutual, when it really is not.

[Bastian Valoron]

Wanting to separate from the Federation does not automatically mean wanting to join the State. It is possible to want to secede without being pro-Heth and having serious concerns bordering on civil unrest regarding State invasion.

I disagree with your suggestion that the President of the Federation was a secessionist. It's true that under the occupation there must be many kinds of sentiments in the air. The terror and unrest might have been just what Scope chose to report at the time.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here it sounds like it's the classic mistaken arguement of secessionists secretly supporting the State which was the usual accusation of pro-Feds when I first started RPing with the ILF.

You are misunderstanding me. All I was saying was that there was no indication that the Intakis would have been happy to leave the Federation, even though there is a connection between the Intakis and the Caldari Navy through the Mordu's legion. The claim that secessionists are in the silent majority is a very good claim for you to make in-character, but out-of-character it would kill your role-play in my opinion.

Why is there something wrong with playing a minority group? It gives you free hands to do anything and allows you to take more freedoms with regard to PF. Representing a majority and defending the status quo is often a less interesting role-playing option than being a dissenter. By choosing the latter, you associate with sexy freedom fighters, but by choosing the former you appear more like some dusty bureaucrats.

[Bastian Valoron]

The relevant passage, emphasis mine:

The social uproar following the Caldari departure from the Federation touched the Intakis deeply and many of them sympathized and even supported the Caldari - the yoke of the cumbersome Federation bureaucracy lay as heavily on the Intakis as the Caldari. Understandably the Gallenteans were forced to deal harshly with these elements to prevent a complete fragmentation of the young Federation.

Apart from a few minor uprisings the Federation quickly subdued the Intakis. Those deemed the biggest threat to the stability of the regime were arrested and exiled. Some of these went over to the Caldari side, but the majority of the exiles, some five thousand in total, went out into the great unknown at the outskirts of Federation space. There they built themselves new homes in the form of sprawling space stations - the Federation barring them from colonizing any planets or moons.

In time as the exiles became more organized and their power increased through asteroid mining and black market trading they formed a loosely connected organization and termed it the Intaki syndicate. ...

The color is mine. The Syndicate was formed after the Federation pushed out the criminal elements from its area.

[Shae Tiann]

That was my point: the Syndicate was formed from Intaki separatists and other undesirables the Federation didn't feel like martyring. It is not synonymous with the Intaki people as a whole, and never has been.

[Bataav]

I disagree with your suggestion that the President of the Federation was a secessionist.

I wasn't suggesting he was. Perhaps the misunderstandings of what we're saying goes both ways  . My point was just that it has been argued in the past that to be a seperatist is to be pro-State and that this is incorrect. I was approaching the subject from a wider view than focussing on Foiritan.

Of course this isn't restricted to Intaki. Those who RP the liberal Caldari angle are automatically labelled "pro-Fed traitors" to others.

You are misunderstanding me. All I was saying was that there was no indication that the Intakis would have been happy to leave the Federation, even though there is a connection between the Intakis and the Caldari Navy through the Mordu's legion. The claim that secessionists are in the silent majority is a very good claim for you to make in-character, but out-of-character it would kill your role-play in my opinion.

Why is there something wrong with playing a minority group? It gives you free hands to do anything and allows you to take more freedoms with regard to PF. Representing a majority and defending the status quo is often a less interesting role-playing option than being a dissenter. By choosing the latter, you associate with sexy freedom fighters, but by choosing the former you appear more like some dusty bureaucrats.

Yeah we do openly admit to being the minority, both in and out of character. I think what some of us do, myself included, is raise the question of how much of a minority. After all the Vrejama Idama character is quoted as saying that the Gallente bombardment of Caldari Prime effectively hinted at what could happen to the Intaki homeworld if they pushed to leave the Federation as well. To me, and maybe it's just my own interpretation of the quote, that suggests there are more seperatists, or there were at the time, than the vocal few who speak out.

[Hamish Grayson]

I've always been under the impression tha the majority of Capsuleers are the PCs and very few NPC Capsuleers exist and most of them are heads I'd state.

If you've seen the movie Limitless, that is what I imagine the process of becoming a capsuleer is like.   All your IQ, willpower, memory, charisma and reflexes  are quadrupled at the very least.    Capsuleers cannot be controlled by baselines and the baselines don't even try.

*goes off to watch Limitless on Netflix*

[Bastian Valoron]

My point was just that it has been argued in the past that to be a seperatist is to be pro-State and that this is incorrect. I was approaching the subject from a wider view than focussing on Foiritan.

Of course this isn't restricted to Intaki. Those who RP the liberal Caldari angle are automatically labelled "pro-Fed traitors" to others.

Well, out-of-character I see both the majority question and ILF's alleged idolatry of the State merely as propaganda statements. If the former was true, then it would cause hard-to-explain issues with the years long Gallente-Caldari war story arc. If the latter was true, then it would more or less invalidate the years long role-playing efforts related to Intaki's peaceful secession.

Yeah we do openly admit to being the minority, both in and out of character. I think what some of us do, myself included, is raise the question of how much of a minority. After all the Vrejama Idama character is quoted as saying that the Gallente bombardment of Caldari Prime effectively hinted at what could happen to the Intaki homeworld if they pushed to leave the Federation as well. To me, and maybe it's just my own interpretation of the quote, that suggests there are more seperatists, or there were at the time, than the vocal few who speak out.

The existence of the separatist movement has been canonized, no doubt about that.

[lallara zhuul]

I've always been under the impression tha the majority of Capsuleers are the PCs and very few NPC Capsuleers exist and most of them are heads I'd state.

If you've seen the movie Limitless, that is what I imagine the process of becoming a capsuleer is like.   All your IQ, willpower, memory, charisma and reflexes  are quadrupled at the very least.    Capsuleers cannot be controlled by baselines and the baselines don't even try.

While still they are undoubtedly nothing more than fancy microchips for the ships that they fly.

[Esna Pitoojee]

There's a thing, from ages and ages ago, that's important to this -

When the Assault Frigate and HAC ships were introduced into the game, there were a couple of news articles that mentioned, among other things, that these ships were designed explicitely for capsuleers and couldn't be operated without a capsuleer at the helm.


In various missions, FW plexes, etc. we encounter many empire Navy ships that use the HAC/AF skins and function as HACs/Recon/AFs/ceptor/etc equivalents for the NPCs. I've never been sure if I should treat these as "truly loyal" capsuleers or not.

One part of me says, "There must be other loyal capsuleers besides the players - if any serious government ran a program like the capsuleer one, they'd look at the failure-to-remain-loyal-rate the players alone have and say 'shut that thing down until we find a new way to brainwash them'."

Then another part of me says, "It's been 6-7 years since T2 ships came out. Surely there's been some advances in tech to open them up to others in that time? And it's not exactly like they match the HAC/AF/whatever layouts or are that hard to kill, so you can't prove they're T2 ships..."

And round and round and round it goes. Generally I hold to the idea that there are maybe a couple hundred thousand more "empire loyal" capsuleers that aren't player characters, simply because I can't believe all 4 (5?) of the  national governments would run a program that poorly for a few hundred (at best) loyal minions. It'd be like giving every Joe on Earth free nukes just so you can keep the nuke-building factories supplying your own forces running.

[Borza]

There must certainly be some, the way CCP pop Live Event NPC capsuleers into existence as non-newbs.