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[Saxon Hawke]

Actually, I got one more gripe about this:

The one challenging, also seem to always set the terms. "I challenge you to a duel! And it's going to be held at this particular location, with this particular shiptype, and here's another list of rules I set! Agree or be branded coward!"

I've also found this to be a bit odd. In the old tradition of the duel the person accepting the challenge chose the method of the duel.

Additionally, whole idea of the duel was not really to kill your opponent, but to restore one's honor by demonstrating a willingness to risk one's life for it. Since Pod pilots don't risk their life in ship combat, there is no merit to the duel for this purpose.

So, like male nipples and the tail fins on a '57 Chevy, spaceship duels serve practical purpose.

[Laerise [PIE]]

I'm glad we have a rule against duels in PIE. Honestly, they're pretty useless, as is the whole arranged 1on1 bullshit. Someone's gonna cheat anyways.

On the other hand if someone's stupid enough to engage me in a 1on1 fight just like that I don't mind sending them home in a pod at all. 

[Mazca]

Well, that's just it, Mazca, I find it to be silly and stupid. That could be taken as 'urarrpeesizrong!', but that's not how it's intended. I find the whole thing silly and stupid due to the way it's used. A cheap copout, or a way to overpower newer players, or players more SP centralized on industry when arguments are getting close to being lost.

Anyway, it was an honest enough question. I wanted to see if there was anything about it that I didn't understand or know. So far, apparently it wasn't, thus my opinion stands. It's silly, and stupid.

My point is that for your logic to apply you have to be pretty certain that it is infact an escape tactic form a loosing argument. I think jumping directly to that conclusion might be skipping a few steps.

[Mizhara]

Quite possible, I'm not asserting it as fact. However, that is the impression I've gotten from seeing this occur time and time again.

[Silver Night]

[admin]I removed several posts from this topic. To quote the FAQ:Q: So you want us to act all lovey-dovey? A: Yes. Deal with it. Q: Doesn't being polite to people I disagree with make me a hypocrite? A: No. It makes you a grown-up. Please keep in mind this also applies to people who aren't registered here. They can't, after all, defend their viewpoints.If you disagree with something, please post constructively about why you disagree, and perhaps what a better path would be.[/admin]

[Mizhara]

My apologies. However, I'd like to state that it was not directed at specific people, but at a concept and 'tactic' that's just... stupid. Anyway, my points are somewhere down in the catacombs for perusal, I suppose, if anyone's still curious.

But more importantly, does anyone have any ideas how this can actually be something... ... how the hell do I ask this question without calling it stupid again? How can this BATTLESHIPS AT DAWN! tactic actually be... worth something, both IC and OoC?

[Casiella]

Does it have to be? Can people just agree that not everybody thinks it has any value?

[Mizhara]

That's just it, people do it, so it should have at least some value. If only to them, at least. If not, it defaults to worthless across the board, and that's even worse. Which makes me curious, what is it's value?

[Myyona]

Ego inflation, that is my answer. Done with this topic.

[Casiella]

It leads to more pew pew. People like that. /shrug

[Misan]

I think I've stated my opinion on (battleship) duels before, but may as well say it again.

Personally I think battleship duels, especially ones where it is explicitly specified there are no limitations, are catering solely to the pilot with more SP and ISK to invest into the ship. To me it's less of a question of skill and more about a numbers game with battleship 1v1s (if they are fit competently). It's not fair or equal by any stretch as whoever has more ISK to leverage can come out on top in most cases (HG slave sets as a perfect example of this imbalance). Where is the fun or challenge in that?

I see why some characters would choose to challenge someone to a BS duel IC, but as has been touched on by several others there are a lot of reasons why someone would refuse. In this case it's hard for me not to see it as a tool to paint someone as a coward. They refuse the duel because they can't even competently fly one, think it's a waste of good crew, or some other consideration and are publicly labeled as cowardly by the challenging party. No real complaint about the tactic there, as it's a perfectly valid propaganda approach. That said, if it's used during a debate to attempt to marr someone's reputation and invalidate their points it turns into a tool for dishonest debate. If a character wants to do that, all well and good, but don't expect anyone to want to engage in discourse with that character if they know there is a chance of it devolving into a similar situation.

On a totally different point, Misan were to ever accept a duel it would have to be a Frigate duel. Risking crew for some point of honor or pride is a foolish choice in her mind. Frigate fights are much more of an equalizer of skill points and there's quite a lot of variety in the ship hulls at that level. I found it more challenging to develop a good counter ship at the frigate level.

Edit: To address Miz's question after I already wrote this:

Assuming roughly equal pilot SP levels and ISK invested into the BS, there can be some fun had by both sides during the duel. OOC it's just about throwing big ships at each other and seeing who comes out the victor. Nothing wrong with that, as I've said above I just think it's not as much a test of skill as SP/ISK in more cases. I've enjoyed watching random BS 1v1s in PvP videos, but those aren't usually arranged (though the bits where they get outnumbered are better ).

As for IC, not really sure myself. They can be a way to establish dominance or superiority I suppose. Not all capsuleers care that they are risking crew or that winning a duel doesn't kill or defeat their opponent. Lots of options for why someone might enjoy them IC.

[Mazca]

I agree with Misan. And I do think in this particular case its IC Probaganda full on. withheld wrath from back when Mizhara herself, engaged in (what was percieved as) probaganda against SF.

[Misan]

Since someone was asking in OOC I went ahead and made up a theoretical 'from zero' plan to get into what I consider to be an appropriately skilled BS. I went with Amarr because well, they are the most popular. All supports that weren't necessary for other skills were taken to IV, exceptions being the basic fitting ones which were taken to V. The results of the plan puts you in a BS with T2 pulses, T2 heavies (ogres only +4d for zerkers), a competent T2 armor tank, and good cap and general maneuvering skills. Order is random as I was just adding them on as I go, it wouldn't be the natural progression if you actually wanted to accomplish anything while training.

The total time is 335d, but this is with a new char who hasn't remapped yet. Realistically this actually drops down to 300d with fully optimized attributes. Running with +4s will push it to about 250-260d. In the end though, that's a long ass time, and it doesn't give you competence in anything but cruisers in the meantime. A main character would reasonably have another ~3-4 months of skills in other things trained while moving towards this, if not more. Misan doesn't even have T2 heavies yet because there are better things to train for what she flies...   

1. Instant Recall I
2. Analytical Mind I
3. Learning I
4. Instant Recall II
5. Analytical Mind II
6. Learning II
7. Instant Recall III
8. Analytical Mind III
9. Learning III
10. Instant Recall IV
11. Eidetic Memory I
12. Eidetic Memory II
13. Eidetic Memory III
14. Analytical Mind IV
15. Logic I
16. Logic II
17. Logic III
18. Learning IV
19. Eidetic Memory IV
20. Logic IV
21. Learning V
22. Iron Will I
23. Iron Will II
24. Iron Will III
25. Iron Will IV
26. Spatial Awareness I
27. Spatial Awareness II
28. Spatial Awareness III
29. Spatial Awareness IV
30. Spatial Awareness V
31. Empathy I
32. Empathy II
33. Focus I
34. Focus II
35. Focus III
36. Focus IV
37. Clarity I
38. Clarity II
39. Clarity III
40. Clarity IV
41. Spaceship Command IV
42. Amarr Frigate III
43. Amarr Frigate IV
44. Amarr Cruiser I
45. Amarr Cruiser II
46. Amarr Cruiser III
47. Amarr Cruiser IV
48. Amarr Battleship I
49. Amarr Battleship II
50. Amarr Battleship III
51. Amarr Battleship IV
52. Motion Prediction I
53. Motion Prediction II
54. Motion Prediction III
55. Motion Prediction IV
56. Motion Prediction V
57. Small Energy Turret IV
58. Small Energy Turret V
59. Small Pulse Laser Specialization I
60. Small Pulse Laser Specialization II
61. Small Pulse Laser Specialization III
62. Small Pulse Laser Specialization IV
63. Gunnery III
64. Medium Energy Turret I
65. Medium Energy Turret II
66. Medium Energy Turret III
67. Medium Energy Turret IV
68. Medium Energy Turret V
69. Medium Pulse Laser Specialization I
70. Medium Pulse Laser Specialization II
71. Medium Pulse Laser Specialization III
72. Medium Pulse Laser Specialization IV
73. Gunnery IV
74. Gunnery V
75. Large Energy Turret I
76. Large Energy Turret II
77. Large Energy Turret III
78. Large Energy Turret IV
79. Large Energy Turret V
80. Large Pulse Laser Specialization I
81. Large Pulse Laser Specialization II
82. Large Pulse Laser Specialization III
83. Large Pulse Laser Specialization IV
84. Navigation IV
85. Navigation V
86. Warp Drive Operation I
87. Warp Drive Operation II
88. Warp Drive Operation III
89. Warp Drive Operation IV
90. Evasive Maneuvering I
91. Evasive Maneuvering II
92. Evasive Maneuvering III
93. Evasive Maneuvering IV
94. Afterburner I
95. Afterburner II
96. Afterburner III
97. High Speed Maneuvering I
98. High Speed Maneuvering II
99. High Speed Maneuvering III
100. High Speed Maneuvering IV
101. Acceleration Control I
102. Acceleration Control II
103. Acceleration Control III
104. Acceleration Control IV
105. Mechanic III
106. Mechanic IV
107. Mechanic V
108. Hull Upgrades I
109. Hull Upgrades II
110. Hull Upgrades III
111. Hull Upgrades IV
112. Hull Upgrades V
113. Explosive Armor Compensation I
114. Explosive Armor Compensation II
115. Explosive Armor Compensation III
116. Explosive Armor Compensation IV
117. EM Armor Compensation I
118. EM Armor Compensation II
119. EM Armor Compensation III
120. EM Armor Compensation IV
121. Jury Rigging I
122. Jury Rigging II
123. Jury Rigging III
124. Armor Rigging I
125. Armor Rigging II
126. Armor Rigging III
127. Repair Systems I
128. Repair Systems II
129. Repair Systems III
130. Repair Systems IV
131. Thermic Armor Compensation I
132. Thermic Armor Compensation II
133. Thermic Armor Compensation III
134. Thermic Armor Compensation IV
135. Kinetic Armor Compensation I
136. Kinetic Armor Compensation II
137. Kinetic Armor Compensation III
138. Kinetic Armor Compensation IV
139. Controlled Bursts I
140. Controlled Bursts II
141. Controlled Bursts III
142. Controlled Bursts IV
143. Weapon Upgrades I
144. Weapon Upgrades II
145. Weapon Upgrades III
146. Weapon Upgrades IV
147. Weapon Upgrades V
148. Trajectory Analysis I
149. Trajectory Analysis II
150. Trajectory Analysis III
151. Trajectory Analysis IV
152. Surgical Strike I
153. Surgical Strike II
154. Surgical Strike III
155. Surgical Strike IV
156. Sharpshooter I
157. Sharpshooter II
158. Sharpshooter III
159. Sharpshooter IV
160. Rapid Firing I
161. Rapid Firing II
162. Rapid Firing III
163. Rapid Firing IV
164. Advanced Weapon Upgrades I
165. Advanced Weapon Upgrades II
166. Advanced Weapon Upgrades III
167. Advanced Weapon Upgrades IV
168. Engineering IV
169. Engineering V
170. Energy Emission Systems I
171. Energy Emission Systems II
172. Energy Emission Systems III
173. Energy Emission Systems IV
174. Energy Grid Upgrades I
175. Energy Grid Upgrades II
176. Energy Grid Upgrades III
177. Energy Grid Upgrades IV
178. Energy Management I
179. Energy Management II
180. Energy Management III
181. Energy Management IV
182. Energy Management V
183. Energy Systems Operation I
184. Energy Systems Operation II
185. Energy Systems Operation III
186. Energy Systems Operation IV
187. Energy Systems Operation V
188. Targeting I
189. Targeting II
190. Targeting III
191. Targeting IV
192. Propulsion Jamming I
193. Propulsion Jamming II
194. Propulsion Jamming III
195. Propulsion Jamming IV
196. Long Range Targeting I
197. Long Range Targeting II
198. Long Range Targeting III
199. Long Range Targeting IV
200. Electronics IV
201. Electronics V
202. Signature Analysis I
203. Signature Analysis II
204. Signature Analysis III
205. Signature Analysis IV
206. Drones I
207. Scout Drone Operation I
208. Scout Drone Operation II
209. Scout Drone Operation III
210. Scout Drone Operation IV
211. Scout Drone Operation V
212. Drones II
213. Drones III
214. Drones IV
215. Drones V
216. Heavy Drone Operation I
217. Heavy Drone Operation II
218. Heavy Drone Operation III
219. Heavy Drone Operation IV
220. Heavy Drone Operation V
221. Gallente Drone Specialization I
222. Gallente Drone Specialization II
223. Gallente Drone Specialization III
224. Gallente Drone Specialization IV
225. Drone Interfacing I
226. Drone Interfacing II
227. Drone Interfacing III
228. Drone Interfacing IV
229. Combat Drone Operation I
230. Combat Drone Operation II
231. Combat Drone Operation III
232. Combat Drone Operation IV
233. Drone Navigation I
234. Drone Navigation II
235. Drone Navigation III
236. Drone Navigation IV
237. Drone Sharpshooting I
238. Drone Sharpshooting II
239. Drone Sharpshooting III
240. Drone Sharpshooting IV
241. Cybernetics I
242. Science IV
243. Thermodynamics I
244. Thermodynamics II
245. Thermodynamics III
246. Thermodynamics IV


Total time: 335 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes

[Mizhara]

And that is assuming the character is entirely combat focused, and doesn't have a Hulk with all mining support skills, and a bit of mining leadership to boot, heh.

[Ciarente]

I wonder how miners challenge each other to duels of honor ... pick the same asteroid and furiously cut their cycles at each other?