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[Seriphyn]

I was discussing with another member of the RP community in private a couple days ago, the general problem with EVE PF is how vague it is, and we're either forced to do either one of two things...

1) Extrapolate and deduce from what we have
2) Use a RL point of reference.

Let's take faction navies. All four are very different in their doctrine and function. However, as far as gameplay mechanics are concerned, they all operate the same. They appear all over the world, in missions, in deadspace, doing the exact same things. So how do we differentiate? I personally would extrapolate. The Federation Navy, though not the largest, could be argued to be the most widespread of all four navies. They've got Guristas to fight in the north ("The one thing Gallente and Caldari can agree on"), they've got Serpentis and nullsec interests to the west, helping the Republic and fighting the Cartel to the west, and leading the Sansha occupation (is CONCORD an extension of Gallente influence?) in the south. Now, according to missions, the faction navies are everywhere, but this would all be fluff. FedNav is an "influence-projecting tool" versus the "rapid reaction force" of the Caldari Navy.

Or, alternatively, use RL points of references to make it easier. It's not a case of "This bit in EVE = this in RL" but just some loose foundations. For example, the Federation military is similar to the American military; ethnically mixed, a power-projection force and, though it tries to be cutting-edge, often competes with a civilian government for funding and battling red tape. The Amarr military is similar to the Russian military. Massive, world's largest arms manufacturers, but significantly outdated across many areas. Another similarity to the Russian military is the extensive experience with counter-insurgency operations (see, Riot Interdiction Teams in-game item). The Caldari military is similar to Israel and small "powerhouse" East Asian states such as S.Korea, Japan and Singapore, with conscription and an idea of "total defence" (however, they entail being a rapid reaction force too). The Minmatar military is similar to post-Soviet bloc militaries of Eastern Europe; not as well-equipped as larger powers, but unrivalled in the knowledge of their home territory, and fully capable in using the tools they are given to fight off invaders.

Is this a bad thing, using this RL point of reference? Outside of that extrapolation/comparison, the EVE militaries are sometimes (sometimes) portrayed as very American; gung-ho with shouts of "Sarge!" and other genericisms (I would argue Gallenteans are the gung-ho types with nude women on their shoulder pads, while the Minmatar are the most susceptible to heinous acts; anyone telling them to treat Amarr POWs well? Nope...).

But it's not just military stuff.  Stuff like the Amarr, in terms of everyday attitudes, I see as very Middle Eastern, especially through system names (though the religious institute has Western Christian influences of course). Women covering up flesh, clothing, perhaps defined gender roles (please don't murder me okay lol), and so forth. A few (a lot) of us play the Amarrians are Roman Imperials or Medieval Europeans, for example, which I personally don't see the connection, but that's an example of using a RL point of reference. (if pre-industrial Gallente potentially had Greco-Roman and Medieval European influences, than would it be possible for the Amarrians to have the same thing, given the stark differences in culture? I would argue no, and that Persia is a better influence point).

I'm sure some of you are twitching now at the "this is that" present in this post, but I'm presenting the idea that, in lack of knowing any better, using a RL point of reference is the only thing to go on. Yes, Amarr is Amarr, Caldari is Caldari, but there are so many aspects of the EVE universe that is unexplored, there is no other option. What do you think?

Also, half-asleep when writing this. Apologies for weak writing or bad tone.

[Raze Valadeus]

I can relate to most of what's outlined here but I would make a quick difference of opinion. The Amarr religious institution is dramatically more related to Old Testament Judaism and Islam than Western Christianity.

You've got the Theocracy outlook of the Roman Catholic church during the Medieval Ages combined with the overtly military, expansionist mandate of early Judaism and Islam.

These kinds of "blender" combinations in faith, culture and practice in each government, race and religion is what makes EVE so difficult to RP at times, because with no PF point of reference on something, you come down to how each player perceives each aspect of each government, religion, race and then you have to try and come to some sort of acceptable middle ground between the viewpoints of each situation.

Only to find out that other players are having the same disagreement from completely different angles and now nothing makes sense logically.

[Borza]

RL points of reference are bad. A few similarities in no way means there is widespread equivalence.

[Matariki Rain]

Very much an observation in passing, but...

I can relate to most of what's outlined here but I would make a quick difference of opinion. The Amarr religious institution is dramatically more related to Old Testament Judaism and Islam than Western Christianity.

You've got the Theocracy outlook of the Roman Catholic church during the Medieval Ages combined with the overtly military, expansionist mandate of early Judaism and Islam.

How is this different to the Christianity of the Crusader era, the Spanish Reconquista, etcetera?

And did anyone notice the reference to the history of the place-name Vitrauze in "The Vitrauze Project"?

It had been named after an early Federation Senator, whose name in turn was supposedly taken from one of the first settlers to come through the EVE Gate. To the Amarr, "Vitra" meant simply "life." Life itself. The Gallentean understanding of the word was more subtle, however. To them it meant "living."

Somewhere in the conversion to the EVE world, Latin 'vita' and Italian 'vita' (another point supporting the idea that Gallente blends Italian elements with French) added an "r" (which, incidentally, turns them glassy).

[Seriphyn]

Hm, my ramblings around the point instead of ON the point threatens a digression here, but regardless, that's very interesting, Mata. Gallente and Amarr....quality of life versus sanctity of life?

Also, yes, Villore (the Federation capital) is actually an Italian town. There is a system called "Harner" in Solitude which is an Old English name. In this regard, I take Gallente to be a catch-all for British, French, Italian and W.Europe in general etc. (English being a combination, amongst other things, of French and Latin, the latter of which can be seen on FedNav NPC names).

But point is...with all this in mind...and with ZERO information on how pre-industrial Gallente society looked like...what do we do? How do we picture it? If we put the RL reference point of W.Europe/Romance civilization aside, they could be feudal Japan and we wouldn't think any better. That's what I mean. A point of reference to take loose influences from, and twist it into the EVE universe.

[Vieve]

Somewhere in the conversion to the EVE world, Latin 'vita' and Italian 'vita' (another point supporting the idea that Gallente blends Italian elements with French) added an "r" (which, incidentally, turns them glassy).

Soul trapped in glass?
Head in a jar? 

[Raze Valadeus]

Very much an observation in passing, but...

I can relate to most of what's outlined here but I would make a quick difference of opinion. The Amarr religious institution is dramatically more related to Old Testament Judaism and Islam than Western Christianity.

You've got the Theocracy outlook of the Roman Catholic church during the Medieval Ages combined with the overtly military, expansionist mandate of early Judaism and Islam.

How is this different to the Christianity of the Crusader era, the Spanish Reconquista, etcetera?

I specifically dictated "Western Christianity." The Crusades were militant campaigns to reclaim the "holy land" of Israel and were specifically Islam vs Medieval Militant Theocratic Chistianity. That's the only distinction. It's semantics, really.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

First and foremost, identifying similarities between real world cultures and those of New Eden are a good start in understanding these (alien) civilizations. CCP didn't conjure these ideas from thin air; the took some interesting concepts and mixed them together to make something new, and is somewhat critical to RPers in understanding their own character's place in this environment.

However, the downfall in this is interposing additional characteristics based on those previous similarities. The Federation may share many similarities with modern western culture, but to then build on that idea on the assumption that they possess the same value system as we do would be, in my eyes, a critical misstep.

For example, the Amarr Empire shares many characteristics with those of the Byzantine Empire and theocratic societies of the middle east. To then suggest that women all wear bhurkas, or that they somehow have a Medieval mindset, in my opinion, short-changes the concept in many ways. 

Ideally, you really have to step back and define what are the key elements of each culture, what their similarities are to the real world, and then investigate how those concepts became so vital to that culture. In other words, theocracy + convert by the sword does not always = muslims, and democratic society + free market doesn't always = USA. When you start filling in the gaps with real world interpretation, rather than analyzing all the factors, you suddenly have the United States of Gallente and a complete misappropriation of ideas.

So the practical dilemma in this is you need a background for your character, and the universe is too incomplete to reasonably develop it without fear of contradicting possible future cannon, or make it too unreasonable that the reader doesn't really identify with your interpretation of the world. In my opinion, requires a measure of flexibility in scope.

Say, perhaps we had a character who's past experience was as a lowly recruit in the Imperial Navy. Instead of trying to define customs, military traditions of the entire Imperial Navy, gloss over the areas that aren't important and focus on the details specific to your character. Perhaps the unit he served in operated in a specific area of space, under a specific holder under a much larger heir navy, and thus their customs are flexible enough that another character with a similar background could have an entirely different experience and still be plausible.

I think there's a reasonable balance to be met with when filling the gaps with your own interpretations of lore, and it requires you to be adaptable and avoid trying to define how everything should be for everyone.

[Matariki Rain]

Very much an observation in passing, but...

I can relate to most of what's outlined here but I would make a quick difference of opinion. The Amarr religious institution is dramatically more related to Old Testament Judaism and Islam than Western Christianity.

You've got the Theocracy outlook of the Roman Catholic church during the Medieval Ages combined with the overtly military, expansionist mandate of early Judaism and Islam.

How is this different to the Christianity of the Crusader era, the Spanish Reconquista, etcetera?

I specifically dictated "Western Christianity." The Crusades were militant campaigns to reclaim the "holy land" of Israel and were specifically Islam vs Medieval Militant Theocratic Chistianity. That's the only distinction. It's semantics, really.

I realise this is a detour but now I'm really curious: what do you mean by "Western Christianity" that doesn't include what people in Western Europe did in the name of the church?

[Laerise [PIE]]

Very much an observation in passing, but...

I can relate to most of what's outlined here but I would make a quick difference of opinion. The Amarr religious institution is dramatically more related to Old Testament Judaism and Islam than Western Christianity.

You've got the Theocracy outlook of the Roman Catholic church during the Medieval Ages combined with the overtly military, expansionist mandate of early Judaism and Islam.

How is this different to the Christianity of the Crusader era, the Spanish Reconquista, etcetera?

I specifically dictated "Western Christianity." The Crusades were militant campaigns to reclaim the "holy land" of Israel and were specifically Islam vs Medieval Militant Theocratic Chistianity. That's the only distinction. It's semantics, really.

I realise this is a detour but now I'm really curious: what do you mean by "Western Christianity" that doesn't include what people in Western Europe did in the name of the church?

Actually byzantene era eastern orthodoxism works better in my opinion. This is especially so because the position of emperor is, as far as we know, more secular than religious. There are no rites that an emperor seems to be required to lead etc. and the whole involvement of apostles is a very strong indicator to the theologically and historically savvy.

Edit: Another good argument is the definition of sin we see in the scriptures. I haven't seen any indication that amarrians believe into the ongoing sinfulness of the fall of man from grace - especially relevant for this is The Scriptures, Book of Missions 5:14.

[Lyn Farel]

Mhh, I was about to say more or less the same thing than Kaleigh.

[Seriphyn]

Yeah, great post Kaleigh, the idea that "these didn't come from thin air" is definitely a strong point. I think also, most importantly, the empires of EVE are NOT post-singularity, excluding Sansha's Nation. They are very grounded in contemporary politics. If, say, the Gallente Federation had each and every one of its citizens connected to each other via a GalNet sort of deal, with instantaneous communication and instant democracy, with drones executing the consensus of the population, THEN RL points of references fall flat.

I'm going to digress on the idea of "United States of Gallente" actually...with a few ideas of how they differ...

Sacred/near-religious concepts of freedom and liberty - Perhaps more akin to the US in the 19th century, the Gallente aren't like the Americans who justify foreign actions with pragmatic, realpolitikal terms such as "national interests" and "ensuring security abroad". President Roden used the term "grand human project of universal freedom", and it's very likely Gallente use the ideas of freedom very similar to how the Amarr use God in their propaganda pieces.
Sometimes covert methods of cultural warfare (eg. food services) - Unlike American food, Gallente food isn't shit, and has more roots in exquisite, European gourmet (With the exception of Quafe food chains). Brought up in Jita 4-4, as opposed to the Federation going overbearing with their food services industry (excluding Quafe), their companies lose face and take up whatever culture they are residing in. Restaurants in the State, Republic and Empire may all sell the local cuisine, but the major ones are going to have Gallente chefs, etc. This is opposed to McDonald's fast food junk (again, excluding Quafe).
Extreme diversity to the power of 100 - Take every culture on Earth right now, and it all exists in one form or another in the Federation. Minmatar tribalism and the Amarr religion (along with offshoots such as Sani Sabik) is definitely practiced in the Federation. Take the Intaki traditions; it's not going to be practiced exclusively in the Intaki home system, but likely as far as a melting pot such as Luminaire. Likewise, the Jin-Mei caste system probably exists in some form or another (The loosest form being how ethnic Jin-Meis interact with each other) across the Federation. In this sense, the Federation resembles more of a 22nd united Earth faction such as the Systems Alliance. Governed by a Western political system (democracy), but its culture varies greatly.
Possible female-dominance? - Purely conjecture. My own theory is that the Gallente have concepts of hypermasculinity AND hyperfemininity. If there is no male dominance, then the men are likely going to be quite laid-back. A woman's biologically smaller frame means that they may be more inclined to try and "beat" the naturally larger male gender. This has no root in PF, of course, mostly because a lot of the main characters are male. :tonyg:?
It's the FUTURE! - God Almighty, this is the most important bit. Do people not play Mass Effect because the Systems Alliance is democratic and therefore "US-in-space"? No, of course not. the Federation is NOT a copy-paste of the US or Europe, because firstly it's an interplanetary democracy. Drones, artificial intelligence, faster-than-light communication...how does this all influence the Gallentean government? Near-instant, or at least superfast, democracy? The Federation has towering, crystalline cities of multiple layers, they have simulated planetary environments in space...they build habitations with a temperate ecosystem underground...

But yeah, the things I would emphasize is 1) the GalFed has future technology (as to ALL factions) and 2) the GalFed resembles more of a future Earth faction than the US, mostly because of its extreme diversity. There's much more than that but there's a few points.

[Merdaneth]

I was discussing with another member of the RP community in private a couple days ago, the general problem with EVE PF is how vague it is, and we're either forced to do either one of two things...

What you see as a problem, I see as an advantage.

You seem to be a cataloguer, someone who likes to pin down and codify everything into verifiable (and immutable?) facts. For me a codified catalogue of knowledge (usually with attentdant judges telling me "You can't do that because of X written here and here" tends to stifle my creativity and fun of play. Part of the fun is trying to imagine what something is like with only limited knowledge as a starting point.

Of course everything is grounded in contemporary stuff, if only because we cannot help but look at EVE stuff through our own colored glasses. And of course its fun to try and draw parallels, and try to flesh out stuff. I think you should see this gaps as a blessing too, because it certainly seems to stimulate your creativity too, judging from what write about EVE.

[Casiella]

I'd also make a strong distinction between points of reference and equivalence. That is, one may find it useful to note that CCP originally based the Brutor on elements of Maori culture and then examine what we see of Brutor culture in that light. But turning that into "space Polynesians" seems somewhat more problematic.

[Gottii]

I'd also make a strong distinction between points of reference and equivalence. That is, one may find it useful to note that CCP originally based the Brutor on elements of Maori culture and then examine what we see of Brutor culture in that light. But turning that into "space Polynesians" seems somewhat more problematic.

This.  Real world points of reference serve some purpose, but a very limited one.  Too many people take them literally.